 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
MitchyMitch
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 86 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 01:32 am |
|
OK...Having a conversation on a predominantly Protestant board. Someone remarked about attending a service in a Catholi Church, and noticed that the holy water vessels at the exits were in "pickle jars", which they thought was odd, since Catholic Churches have a reputation for being ornate.
After looking it up and finding that a holy water vessel needs only to be "clean and suitable", the conversation has devolved into Holy Water being pious superstition, as it is meant to convey or transport some kind of blessing.
When I went through RCIA, we were told that we use holy water "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" as a way to remind us of our baptism. and this is the working description of how I have been using it.
However, for the discussion on the other board, what, if anything, does holy water do, aside from the discussion of baptism?
____________________
Pax,
Mitch
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 2034 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 03:34 am |
|
Holy water is used in a variety of blessings, Mitch. I’ve had my house and car, my rosaries and even myself blessed with it. It is also known to be effective against demons. St. Teresa of Avila especially recommends tossing a handful at them. (This, of course, presupposes that one can see the demons so as to know in which direction to throw it. Failing this, dowsing oneself with holy water may act as a sort of shield.)
The power of holy water comes from the prayers of blessing said over it. It is, therefore, the power of prayer, not the power of water, which makes the difference.
David
|
|
|
Pani Rose
Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 528 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 05:36 am |
|
Maybe the Eastern Church can help a bit here 
Epiphany - The Feast of Jordan
In the Byzantine rite, the Feast of Epiphany (also called the Feast of Jordan) commemorates Jesus’ baptism in the river Jordan and the revelation (epiphany or manifestation) of the most Holy Trinity. On the Feast Day in Ukraine and now in Canada, the priest and faithful made a procession from the Church to a nearby lake, river, spring or well. Once there a Cross was cut out of the ice and a there the solemn ceremony of blessing took place. Here in Vancouver, due to the seasonably warmer temperatures, this custom is symbolically observed in the Church.
The Great Hallowing of the Waters is a magnificent ritual that is carried out twice: first on the vigil of the Feast (the eve of Epiphany) and then on the Feast Day itself. A container of water, which may be adorned with evergreens, is placed on a low table in front of the Altar. Then follows a ceremony which includes: - The immersion of the lighted trident candle.
Repeated three times by making a sign of the cross each time. During the rite, the priest immerses the lighted trident candle in the waters and prays "Great are You, O Lord, and Wonderful are Your works" The immersion of the lighted candles signifies the remission of sins in Baptism
- Breathing on the Waters
Repeated three times in the form of a cross, the priest invokes: "O King and Lover of mankind come down through the descent of the Holy Spirit and sanctify this water"
- The immersion of the priest’s right hand
Repeated three times by tracing a sign of the cross and praying "O Master, sanctify this water today by Your Holy Spirit."
At the conclusion of the ceremony, the priest immerses the hand cross into the water during the singing of the troparion of the Feast.
Following this the priest sprinkles the people and church with the newly-blessed water. Following the celebration, the faithful are invited to approach and drink some of the holy water, and then fill their containers. They take the water home for various purposes such as; to bless the sick , to bless people on special occasions (anniversaries, etc), to avert calamities such as fire and inclement weather. At the traditional Supper on Epiphany Eve (or Schedrij Vecher), the faithful drink this water. After the ceremonies in church and the following day and weeks, the priest attempts to visit the homes of the faithful and blesses them with holy water. We should value the efficacy of this holy water, for if we have faith and devotion, the holy water confers actual graces, restrains the power of the devil and remits venial sins.
http://www.stmarysbc.com/faith.html
Then also, some history:
http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/epiphany.htm
And from elsewhere, the page dropped out that I found it on, anyway:
Sometimes people think that the blessing of water and the practice of drinking it and sprinkling it over everyone and everything is a "paganism" which has falsely entered the Christian Church. We know, however, that this ritual was practiced by the People of God in the Old Testament, and that in the Christian Church it has a very special and important significance.
It is the faith of Christians that since the Son of God has taken human flesh and has been immersed in the streams of the Jordan, all matter is sanctified and made pure in him, purged of its death-dealing qualities inherited from the devil and the wickedness of men. In the Lord's epiphany all creation becomes good again, indeed "very good," the way that God himself made it and proclaimed it to be in the beginning when "the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters" (Gen 1:2) and when the "Breath of Life" was breathing in man and in everything that God made (Gen 1:30; 2:7).
The world and everything in it is indeed "very good" (Gen 1:31) and when it becomes polluted, corrupted and dead, God saves it once more by effecting the "new creation" in Christ, his divine Son and our Lord by the grace of the Holy Spirit (Gal 6:15). This is what is celebrated on Epiphany, particularly in the Great Blessing of Water. The consecration of the waters on this feast places the entire world -- through its "prime element" of watering the perspective of the cosmic creation, sanctification, and glorification of the Kingdom of God in Christ arid the Spirit. It tells us that man and the world were indeed created and saved in order to be "filled with all the fullness of God" (Eph 3:19), the "fullness of him who fills all in all" (Eph 1:22). It tells us that Christ, in who in "the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily," is and shall be truly "all, and in all" (Col 2:9, 3:11). It tells us as well that the "new heavens and the new earth" which God has promised through his prophets and apostles (Is 66:2; 2 Peter 3:13, Rev 21:1) are truly "with us" already now in the, mystery of Christ and his Church.
Thus, the sanctification and sprinkling of the Epiphany water is no pagan ritual. It is the expression of the most central fact of the Christian vision of man, his life and his world. It is the liturgical testimony that the vocation and destiny of creation is to be "filled with all the fullness of God" (Eph 3:19).
Last edited on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 05:46 am by Pani Rose
|
|
|
MitchyMitch
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 86 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 09:47 am |
|
Thanks very much, David and Pani.
David - this kind of response is lost on the calvinist who see "Romish" traditions as superstitions and errancy. Thankfully enough, any light mention by other posters of something the least bit RCC makes him hurl the most absurd and base stereotype of protestant thought of the Roman Catholic Church. I say thankfully, because it allows me to correct the plethora of mis-information Protestants have against the RCC. As an adversary, he is very useful, as evidenced by the many private messages I get of encouragement and some even thanking me for correcting their thought. Because of him, I have had two very interested people seek more information about RCC.
Pani - your references here are dead on part of the conversation, as my loyal adversary has mentioned that "all water is holy" since God created it, and baptismal water does confer special grace.
---
I found the catechism (1995) to be particularly useful in the conversation.
Here is my last response to him:
Well, we kind of agree on holy water not existing in the way you suggest Catholics believe it does, Augustinus. You just have a flawed understanding of what holy water is and means to the Catholic and Anglican.
Anyway, this was a thread started about if pickle-jar holy water was ok by Catholic standards. This is the topic. I checked it out, and it seems to be ok if it is "clean and suitable".
Second, as I stated before, you show a rather disengenuous understanding of what holy water is, and what it means to the Catholic (or the Anglican, who also uses holy water in much the same way). Please don't get your information from the visual effects of The Exorcist (humor intended). Also, you are still confusing "Sacramentals" with "Sacraments".
Third, as with the annointing oil for the sick, the water (and oil) is not [as] significant as the prayer to the One Who "blesses" it. Don't think a prayer can bless objects? Well, that is not going to stop me from asking God to bless my food as I give thanks for it.
"Sacramental" is a word of post-biblical Christianity. However, we plainly see the concept of "Sacramentals" in the examples I cited above. [OT - Holy water used in the Rite of Jealosy, numbers 5; annointing the sick with oil in Paul's letter]
Lastly, let me quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1995, in regards to Sacramentals, so you can better understand it even if you do not agree with it:
1668 Sacramentals...always include a prayer, often accompanied by a specific sign, such as the laying on of hands, the sign of the cross, or the sprinkling of holy water (which recalls Baptism).
1670 Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the Sacraments do, but by the Church's prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it...
Various forms of sacramentals
1671 Among sacramentals blessings (of persons, meals, objects, and places) come first. Every blessing praises God and prays for his gifts. In Christ, Christians are blessed by God the father "with every spiritual blessing."...
1672 Certain blessings have a lasting importance because they consecrate persons to God, or reserve objects and places for liturgical use...The dedication or blessing of a church or an altar, the blessing of holy oils, vessels, and vestments, bells, etc., can be mentioned as blessings that concern objects.
------------------
So, one wonders if you have prayed over a sick child, a meal, someone going into the ministry, a vehicle that was about to break down.... Prayed over a tithe check....helped in prayer for a church or Christian school groundbreaking that God would provide his blessings on that church, that school. One wonders if, had someone called your prayers "sacramental superstition", would it have stopped you.Last edited on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 10:02 am by MitchyMitch
____________________
Pax,
Mitch
|
|
|
MitchyMitch
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 86 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 10:03 am |
|
A reply from another party weighing in on the discussion:
Interesting. "Sacrementals" just seem to be a name for what we Baptists have been doing all along.
Learn something new every day.
____________________
Pax,
Mitch
|
|
|
Pani Rose
Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 528 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 02:54 pm |
|
I have seen Holy Water do a lot of amazing works, however, one in particular stands out. I have been retired from the Post Office since '97, but back in '88, oh it was so cool! This woman who had been raised in Church of God, but was far from it due to abuse by her father who was the preacher, had a habit of taking God's name in vein, along with being very demeaning towards others of different nationalities and culture.
I just couldn't stand it any longer. One day, I came in late off my route and everyone was gone but a few clerks. So, I got out my bottle of Holy Water and sprinkled and prayed the Our Father, Hail Mary, and my own prayer throughout the Post Office. When I came to her case - where we cased the mail to get it ready for the route - I prayed extra hard, rebuking the worldly spirits in the Name of Jesus, and especially on the floor there.
I said, "Lord Jesus, everytime she takes the Father's name in vain, let her feet burn. Let her realize what she is doing." After a few minutes there, really sprinkling down her whole case as much as I could, I finished up.
Well, the next day, she came in and soon started on her ditribe. OH MY, did she ever. Suddenly, she was standing there, with one foot rubbing it on the back of her leg, then the other. Finally, she said in a loud voice - "my feet are burning!"   Oh thanks be to God! When she quit swearing, her feet quit burning 
Last edited on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 02:56 pm by Pani Rose
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1658 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 04:07 pm |
|
A good friend of mine did a lengthy debate with an anti-Catholic, defending holy water (I advised him a bit, on his request):
Biblical Evidence for Holy Water (Nicholas Hardesty) (+ Discussion)
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
MitchyMitch
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Snellville, Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 86 |
| First Name: | Mitch | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist...Now Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 9th, 2008 07:44 pm |
|
| Thanks, Dave! A great resource I will use a lot in this discussion.
____________________
Pax,
Mitch
|
|
|
Current time is 12:31 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
