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bwhite06517
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| Joined: | Sat Dec 29th, 2007 |
| Location: | Hamden, Connecticut USA |
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| First Name: | Bruce | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, CATHOLIC!!!! |
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 04:15 pm |
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For eighteen years, we were in South Dakota. I heard of a rural parish that was served by a priest that had three churches to visit on a weekend. On Saturday, he celebrated Mass at one of the parishes, and on Sunday went to one parish at 8:00 a.m. - and then to this parish for a 10:00 Mass.
South Dakota can be very cold in winter. This was an older building - and the main source of heat was an old pot-bellied stove that was in the entry. Somebody came an hour early and started up the stove - but the heat hadn't radiated through the rest of the church. When the priest arrived, the people were generally in the entry around the stove - and the greeting of the Mass was also a call to come into the sanctuary. It got to be (little 't') tradition, to gather around the stove until the priest arrived - even in summer.
Eventually a new church building was built - but even then the tradition had been established - you wait in the entry until the priest arrived and then enter the sanctuary. Children grew up in this parish - thinking it was the normal standard to wait in the back entry for the priest.
Sometimes such traditions of men stand in our way of seeing what is important (capital T Traditions) and what might be more of a local custom / informal tradition.
Bruce
Hamden, CT
____________________
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength.
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CajunRick
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| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 06:11 pm |
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bwhite06517 wrote: Sometimes such traditions of men stand in our way of seeing what is important (capital T Traditions) and what might be more of a local custom / informal tradition.
There is great insight in what you say. By the time John XXIII was elected pope in 1958, many traditions had worked their way into the Church and were being treated as Traditions. For example, the kerchief priests used to tie to their wrists to wipe the sweat from their brows in the days before air conditioning had become a "vestment" which had to be put on with prayerful reverence and served no valid function at all.
His stated purpose in calling for Vatican II was aggiornamento, literally (as I understand it), "opening the windows" of the Church to let the air in. In other words, his desire was for the fathers of the council to separate what was truly important from what were merely the "traditions of men".
I think it is pretty commonly accepted that the response to Vatican II went well beyond what the Council fathers intended, and a whole new set of "traditions of men" were formed. For example, the rule requiring the priest to face in the same direction as the people during mass was lifted, and that was taken to mean that the priest must always face the people.
Such overreactions are not uncommon; it historically takes the Church 50 years to absorb the results of a major council and incorporate its pronouncements properly into the life of the Church. We are now in the 43rd year since Vatican II, and Pope Benedict has us in the final stages of establishing that new equilibrium. I believe his intention is to implement the vision of the Council fathers where there will be a blend of old and new, modern and traditional, Latin and vernacular, according to the needs and desires of the People of God who make up the Church.
If it is the only thing I have ever known, it becomes the only way it has ever been. If it lasts three generations, it becomes permanent. I think it is Pope Benedict's intention to make the flexibility of liturgy a permanent part of our understanding. The Church is a very broad tent and there is no reason Hispanics, Europeans, Africans, and Asians must worship in exactly the same manner. With out blend of cultures in the United States, multiple worship styles should be available in all areas as much as practically possible. At the same time, there is no reason a Latin standard cannot exist for when we worship together, or a multicultural experience cannot be employed in multi-ethnic regions like most of the United States.
I have participated in Eucharistic celebrations which began with a traditional Native American smudging to rid the house of evil spirits; which included a ritual Vietnamese dance ceremony in response the scripture readings; and which featured Prayers of the Faithful in multiple languages represented the different ethnic groups, and an offertory procession including the presentation of traditional symbols of each ethnic group in addition to the gifts of bread and wine.
All of these traditions have a valid place within the liturgy where they are appropriate. In your South Dakota parish, it was traditional for the people to enter in procession with the priest, and that is not a bad tradition by any means. I have seen the same thing in other parishes but for different reasons. In fact, on Palm Sunday, the rubrics recommend (but do not mandate) a procession by all the congregation into the church.
One final point I think it's important to also realize that different is not always wrong, and traditions can and should be different from place to place. The mass and the Eucharist are the same everywhere, even if the method of liturgy is considerably different. The Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms of the Latin Rite are both "the mass" as is the Byzantine Rite, the Mozabaric Rite, and all of the other recognized Rites of the Catholic Church, even if it is called the "Divine Liturgy" or another name.
What a wonderful Church God has given us!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 08:02 pm |
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CajunRick wrote:His stated purpose in calling for Vatican II was aggiornamento, literally (as I understand it), "opening the windows" of the Church to let the air in.
This mixes the metaphors. While Pope John XXIII did also speak of “opening the windows,” the actual meaning of the Italian word aggiornamento is “updating,” the root word being giorno, “day.”
Fortunately, this detail does not detract from Rick’s excellent response. Just a few other observations:
I live in a multicultural area on the Mexican border, and Masses here are often a mixture of Spanish and English. The Vatican is reserved about this approach, preferring to keep the languages and cultures distinct, but the local bishop (legitimately) has allowed it, even recommended it, for obvious reasons. There are, in other words, things a bishop can do to change certain aspects of the Mass. This authority is limited, but it is important because it allows the liturgy to be adapted to local needs and existing circumstances.
If it is the only thing I have ever known, it becomes the only way it has ever been. If it lasts three generations, it becomes permanent.
True. This does not mean, however, that a tradition becomes Tradition, having the force of law. It only means that it is acceptable until episcopal legislation to the contrary changes it. In other words, the local bishop can at any time tell the people at that South Dakota parish to stop "processing" in after the priest; liturgical norms would back him up, for the celebrant is supposed to be last in the procession. However, it is also in his power to continue to allow it.
The Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms of the Latin Rite are both "the mass" as is the Byzantine Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, and all of the other recognized Rites of the Catholic Church.
If I remember correctly, Byzantines also have two forms of the Divine Liturgy from which to choose, both based on ancient tradition. And again, each has its vernacular forms in eparchies where these are practiced.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 09:04 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
If I remember correctly, Byzantines also have two forms of the Divine Liturgy from which to choose, both based on ancient tradition. And again, each has its vernacular forms in eparchies where these are practiced.
I'm not sure exactly how or under what circumstances they can be used, but there are Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, and St. James. There is also a Liturgy of St. Gregory (better known as the Liturgy of the Presanctified).
Wikipedia has a very good article on the Eastern Catholic Churches here. Links to the individual Churches include references to the liturgies used within that Church.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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raising3saints
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| Joined: | Thu Feb 14th, 2008 |
| Location: | West Virginia USA |
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Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 10:59 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: David W. Emery wrote:
If I remember correctly, Byzantines also have two forms of the Divine Liturgy from which to choose, both based on ancient tradition. And again, each has its vernacular forms in eparchies where these are practiced.
I'm not sure exactly how or under what circumstances they can be used, but there are Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, and St. James. There is also a Liturgy of St. Gregory (better known as the Liturgy of the Presanctified).
Wikipedia has a very good article on the Eastern Catholic Churches here. Links to the individual Churches include references to the liturgies used within that Church.
On most Sundays (and weekdays for those parishes fortunate enough to have a resident priest and a daily Liturgy) it is the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which is celebrated. On Sundays of the Great Fast (Lent), we use the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, and also celebrate this form on January 1, St. Basil's Feast Day. The Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts is celebrated on Wednesdays and Fridays during the Great Fast (Lent); no Liturgy is said on the other weekdays during this season as they are "a-liturgical" according to the Canon of the Eastern Churches.
I defer to anyone else about the Liturgy of St. James, having no knowledge of it other than that I know it exists, and the texts are beautiful (read them online).
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Cliff
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| Joined: | Fri Feb 8th, 2008 |
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Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 12:44 am |
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| Bruce, your story reminds me of my own parish. All the altar servers, Lectors, Eucharistic Ministers, choir members, etc. gather in the back for a prayer circle before we process in. Sometimes by the time Father arrives, there may be 20 or 30 individuals to greet and shake hands with before he can get to his robes.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 12:55 am |
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raising3saints wrote: I defer to anyone else about the Liturgy of St. James, having no knowledge of it other than that I know it exists, and the texts are beautiful (read them online).
My understanding (which may surely be flawed) is that the Liturgy of St. James is used primarily in the Antiochene Churches such as the Syro-Malabar Churches, and only at limited times.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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