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Intercessor
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 04:58 pm |
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from the Office of Readings for August 11, 2008
From a treatise On the Incarnation of the Lord by Theodoret of Cyr, bishop
I will heal their wounds
His side was pierced as Adam’s was; yet there came forth not a woman who, being beguiled, was to be the death-bearer, but a fountain of life that regenerates the world by its two streams: the one to renew us in the baptismal font and clothe us with the garment of immortality, the other to feed us, the reborn, at the table of God, just as babes are nourished with milk.
Click here for Universalis website.
Since Baptist young adulthood I have heard sermons about Christ's being the new Adam and have taught Sunday School lessons on that material in 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 5. As a Catholic I have heard a great deal about the blood and water flowing from Christ's side and the significance of each stream in that fountain. (Divine Mercy image)
Yet, I can't recall having heard anything before about the two piercings in the side or about the contrast mentioned by Theodoret of Cyr, bishop, between what came from Adam's piercing (a death-bearer) and what came from Christ's piercing (a fountain of life in two streams).
I was struck by this and thought someone else might appreciate a chance to think about it---unless, of course, I'm the only one on the forum who hadn't contrasted the two piercings before.  That could well be the case.
God bless,
Becky
Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 07:19 pm by Intercessor
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 02:59 am |
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It reminds me of this Icon of the Life Giving Spring
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Intercessor
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 04:31 am |
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Pani Rose wrote:
It reminds me of this Icon of the Life Giving Spring
Rose, does it surprise you that this icon shows only the water and not the blood? If you were explaining the icon's teachings to a grandchild, what would you say?
Becky
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 12:48 am |
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Becky to me the Blood is represented through the cross - the life giving water is given to us through the life giving cross - the shape of the Baptismal pool. Here is a good explanation. It is from an Orthodox site, but it gives a clear history and understanding of the 'whys' at orthodoxwiki.org
Panagia(Theotokos) the Life Giving Spring
The term “Theotokos”, Greek for “God-bearer”, The Greek title “Panagia” means “Most Holy”. Because of her role in God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, she is honored as the “First Among the Saints” and esteemed higher than all the angels of Heaven.
The image in the icon includes the Virgin Mary with her child standing within a stone chalice that presumably represents the living water which is Christ. This "living water" is contained in the cross which all who follow him must bear as he did. In the early Church, the baptismal font was actually in the form of a cross just like the cross of this icon and the Christians would enter in from the base of the cross and come out at the top, and then re-enter from the left of the cross and come out on the right of the cross; then the priest, who would be standing in the middle of the cross/baptismal font, would commune them. During the reign of Emperor Marcian (d. 457), a blind man had lost his way and the famous warrior, Leo Marcellus, passing by, helped him. As he went to search for some water to refresh the exhausted man, he heard a voice directing him to the spring.
In Constantinople, sometime in the 5th century, there was a garden that was dedicated to the Virgin Mother of God. In the garden was a spring and it was well-known for its miracles. In its history, the fountain had been destroyed and then rebuilt on many occasions, at the request of the Virgin Mother.
In the 15th century, the city of Constantinople fell into the hands of the Muslims. The Church of the Life-giving Spring was destroyed, and its building materials were used to construct a mosque for Sultan Bayazet. The church site was covered with earth and crushed stone, so that the very foundations of the church disappeared from sight. The beautiful surrounding areas were turned into a Muslim cemetery. A Turkish sentinel, placed at the ruins of the church, forbade Christians not only to gather at the site, but even to approach there.
Little by little, the strictness of this ban eased, and Christians were permitted to build a small church there. However, in 1821, it was destroyed as well, and the spring itself was filled in. Once again Christians cleaned up the ruins, reopened the spring, and once again drew water from it. Even upon these shards of the former magnificent holy structure, the Theotokos, as before, granted hearings through her grace. Later, among the broken pieces in one of the windows was found, already half-rotted away through time and dampness, a panel on which were recorded ten miracles which occurred at the Life-giving Spring during the period 1824-1829.
During the reign of Sultan Mahmoud, the Orthodox received a measure of freedom to conduct religious services. They used it to erect, for the third time, a church above the Life-giving Spring. In 1835, with great pomp, the Ecumenical Patriarch Constantine, celebrating with 20 bishops and an enormous flood of the faithful, consecrated the church which stands to this day. Nearby was built a hospital and alms-house. Even the Muslims spoke with great respect of the Life-giving Spring, and of the Theotokos, who through it pours out her grace-filled power. "Great among women Holy Mary" is how they refer to the Most Holy Virgin. The water from the Life-giving Spring they call the "water of Holy Mary."
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 12:50 am |
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Oh it is funny. The Muslims deny Christ as the Son of God,
but they just LOVE Blessed Mother. Hello  !
When they destroyed the iconography in the Hagi Sophia, they tried to get rid of everything, but those of the Theotokos. Those they just covered over with something.
Last edited on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 12:52 am by Pani Rose
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 04:17 am |
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Pani Rose wrote: Oh it is funny. The Muslims deny Christ as the Son of God,
but they just LOVE Blessed Mother. Hello !
When they destroyed the iconography in the Hagi Sophia, they tried to get rid of everything, but those of the Theotokos. Those they just covered over with something.
As I understand it, Muslims deny the divinity of Christ, but they do not deny the virgin birth, or that Jesus was the greatest prophet other than Mohammed himself. So the reverence they give to our Blessed Mother is comparable to the veneration they feel for Jesus.
Of course, I am not an expert, but my understanding is that Jesus and Mary are given virtually comparable veneration. As Catholics we venerate Mary, but worship Jesus as God incarnate, and that is the difference.
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 05:05 am |
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Pani Rose wrote:
Becky to me the Blood is represented through the cross - the life giving water is given to us through the life giving cross - the shape of the Baptismal pool. Here is a good explanation. It is from an Orthodox site, but it gives a clear history and understanding of the 'whys' at orthodoxwiki.org
Panagia(Theotokos) the Life Giving Spring
The term “Theotokos”, Greek for “God-bearer”, The Greek title “Panagia” means “Most Holy”. Because of her role in God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, she is honored as the “First Among the Saints” and esteemed higher than all the angels of Heaven.
The image in the icon includes the Virgin Mary with her child standing within a stone chalice that presumably represents the living water which is Christ. This "living water" is contained in the cross which all who follow him must bear as he did. In the early Church, the baptismal font was actually in the form of a cross just like the cross of this icon and the Christians would enter in from the base of the cross and come out at the top, and then re-enter from the left of the cross and come out on the right of the cross; then the priest, who would be standing in the middle of the cross/baptismal font, would commune them. During the reign of Emperor Marcian (d. 457), a blind man had lost his way and the famous warrior, Leo Marcellus, passing by, helped him. As he went to search for some water to refresh the exhausted man, he heard a voice directing him to the spring.
In Constantinople, sometime in the 5th century, there was a garden that was dedicated to the Virgin Mother of God. In the garden was a spring and it was well-known for its miracles. In its history, the fountain had been destroyed and then rebuilt on many occasions, at the request of the Virgin Mother.
In the 15th century, the city of Constantinople fell into the hands of the Muslims. The Church of the Life-giving Spring was destroyed, and its building materials were used to construct a mosque for Sultan Bayazet. The church site was covered with earth and crushed stone, so that the very foundations of the church disappeared from sight. The beautiful surrounding areas were turned into a Muslim cemetery. A Turkish sentinel, placed at the ruins of the church, forbade Christians not only to gather at the site, but even to approach there.
Little by little, the strictness of this ban eased, and Christians were permitted to build a small church there. However, in 1821, it was destroyed as well, and the spring itself was filled in. Once again Christians cleaned up the ruins, reopened the spring, and once again drew water from it. Even upon these shards of the former magnificent holy structure, the Theotokos, as before, granted hearings through her grace. Later, among the broken pieces in one of the windows was found, already half-rotted away through time and dampness, a panel on which were recorded ten miracles which occurred at the Life-giving Spring during the period 1824-1829.
During the reign of Sultan Mahmoud, the Orthodox received a measure of freedom to conduct religious services. They used it to erect, for the third time, a church above the Life-giving Spring. In 1835, with great pomp, the Ecumenical Patriarch Constantine, celebrating with 20 bishops and an enormous flood of the faithful, consecrated the church which stands to this day. Nearby was built a hospital and alms-house. Even the Muslims spoke with great respect of the Life-giving Spring, and of the Theotokos, who through it pours out her grace-filled power. "Great among women Holy Mary" is how they refer to the Most Holy Virgin. The water from the Life-giving Spring they call the "water of Holy Mary."
Thanks very much, Rose, for that explanation. If your grandchildren have the attention span for that, I am truly impressed. 
Becky
Last edited on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 05:33 am by Intercessor
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 05:10 pm |
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Becky - that's funny - my grandson would maybe understand this, which is what I would share with him ... Becky to me the Blood is represented through the cross - the life giving water is given to us through the life giving cross - the shape of the Baptismal pool. "....
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 11:14 pm |
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Thanks again, Rose. Guess I'd better not count on getting too much of my Holy Revelation from icons. Until you mentioned it earlier, I had not even noticed that the pool was cross-shaped. I had perceived it as a plus sign and gave my attention, then, to the missing blood.
You know, Baptists sing a surprising number of hymns about the blood. When one has grown up with those, it's easy to forget how gory and strange it seems to an unbeliever to sing about being washed in the blood of the Lamb, for example.
Grace and peace,
Becky
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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ChildofGod
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 11:52 pm |
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Intercessor wrote: [size=Thanks again, Rose. Guess I'd better not count on getting too much of my Holy Revelation from icons. Until you mentioned it earlier, I had not even noticed that the pool was cross-shaped. I had perceived it as a plus sign and gave my attention, then, to the missing blood.
You know, Baptists sing a surprising number of hymns about the blood. When one has grown up with those, it's easy to forget how gory and strange it seems to an unbeliever to sing about being washed in the blood of the Lamb, for example.
]
Immediately one of those hymns came to my recollection.
Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power, are you washed in the blood of the lamb?
Are you daily trusting in His grace this hour, are you washed in the blood of the lamb?
Are you washed in the blood, in the soul cleansing blood of the lamb? Are your garments spotless, are they white as snow? Are you washed in the blood of the lamb?
And what about this one.
What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Oh! precious is the flow That makes me white as snow
No other fount I know. Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
But one of my favorites is this one.
There is a fountain filled with blood Drawn from Immanuel's veins;
And sinner's plunged beneath this flood, Lose all their guilty stains.
The dying thief rejoiced to see that fountain in his day;
And there may I, though vile as he, wash all my sins away.
Dear dying Lamb, Thy pecious blood Shall never lose its pow'r
Till all the ransomed Church of God Be saved, to sin no more.
E'er since by faith I saw the stream Thy flowing wounds supply;
Redeeming love has been my theme, and shall be till I die.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sat Aug 16th, 2008 12:43 am |
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ChildofGod wrote:
Intercessor wrote: [size=Thanks again, Rose. Guess I'd better not count on getting too much of my Holy Revelation from icons. Until you mentioned it earlier, I had not even noticed that the pool was cross-shaped. I had perceived it as a plus sign and gave my attention, then, to the missing blood.
You know, Baptists sing a surprising number of hymns about the blood. When one has grown up with those, it's easy to forget how gory and strange it seems to an unbeliever to sing about being washed in the blood of the Lamb, for example.
]
Immediately one of those hymns came to my recollection.
Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power, are you washed in the blood of the lamb?
And what about this one.
What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
But one of my favorites is this one.
There is a fountain filled with blood Drawn from Immanuel's veins;
And sinner's plunged beneath this flood, Lose all their guilty stains.
The dying thief rejoiced to see that fountain in his day;
And there may I, though vile as he, wash all my sins away.
Dear dying Lamb, Thy pecious blood Shall never lose its pow'r
Till all the ransomed Church of God Be saved, to sin no more.
E'er since by faith I saw the stream Thy flowing wounds supply;
Redeeming love has been my theme, and shall be till I die.
Darlene, we have the same favorite, and I am about in tears over the power of those songs combined. And don't they sound CATHOLIC !!!!!
Thanks for typing those lyrics. What a blessing.
God bless,
Becky
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Sat Aug 16th, 2008 03:30 am |
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I LOVE THOSE HYMNS!
Praise be to God, that tonight at the Divine Liturgy, I was washed in His Blood, His precious Blood, poured out on the cross for all mankind. Given to us today in the breaking of the bread, just as he told his apostles to do when I received him in the Eucharist at Divine Liturgy tonight. THANK YOU JESUS!
As a child singing those hymns, there is no way I could have ever imagined where the Lord would take me in life. Wow, right to His pure Body and Blood. WOW! I shutter
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Intercessor
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Posted: Sat Aug 16th, 2008 06:07 am |
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Pani Rose wrote:
I LOVE THOSE HYMNS!
Praise be to God, that tonight at the Divine Liturgy, I was washed in His Blood, His precious Blood, poured out on the cross for all mankind. Given to us today in the breaking of the bread, just as he told his apostles to do when I received him in the Eucharist at Divine Liturgy tonight. THANK YOU JESUS!
As a child singing those hymns, there is no way I could have ever imagined where the Lord would take me in life. Wow, right to His pure Body and Blood. WOW! I shutter
What a surprise, Rose, to learn that you knew those hymns.
I'm glad God doesn't give us all the details in childhood. Many of the elements of my life worked out just as I had planned them; but, man, there have been some real shockers along the way, as well. Becoming a Catholic was one of the biggest.
Becky
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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Pani Rose
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Posted: Sat Aug 16th, 2008 01:19 pm |
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Becky,
I was raised Southern Baptist. My becoming Eastern Catholic as a young wife and mom, only brought EVERYTHING that I had learned as a child to completion. I guess in todays terminology it all became three dimensional, like  it came alive so sweetly.
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