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scardella
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Posted: Wed Jun 11th, 2008 09:05 pm |
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In Marcus Grodi's radio program, I heard a curious thing. He seemed to claim that purgatory is not a temporal state because you are experiencing it as only a soul.
I immediately thought this was, at the least, very poorly stated if not outright incorrect.
There are the traditional four last things: Death, Judgment, Heaven and Hell.
By its very nature, Purgatory is a transitional thing, and not eternal. Therefore, it must be temporal. The entire point of Purgatory is to prepare one to enter Heaven. Therefore, unless God is some sort of practical joker where someone could have his own personal Waiting for Godot in Purgatory, Purgatory must have an end if all who enter are destined for Heaven eventually. Therefore, Purgatory MUST be a temporal existence and not an eternal existence. That is why it's described as a state, because it changes.
I must say, however, that we do not know how the immortal soul experiences time within Purgatory, since it experiences it without the rhythms of days and nights, seasons and years that the human person experiences as body and soul united during his lifetime on this earth.
Nevertheless, that does not give one leave to say that one does not experience time when he is in purgatory.
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 12:02 am |
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I'm not gonna be any help on this one. I've been Catholic all my life, have studied a little Theology, even, and though I understand why there's a Purgatory, and I believe in it, my confusion lies in the understanding of time and eternity.
I used to understand it even less, though, so I suppose it's one of those on-going processing things... For instance, I used to be confused about free will and predestination. I used to think, how could God know everything I'm going to do if I have free will? - and poor Judas! If he was destined to hand Jesus over, then what choice did he have? But now I understand that God doesn't pull our strings, but He is outside of time and He sees all of time laid out in front of Him; He's the Author of Life and the scroll is laid out in front of Him where He can see it from beginning to end, and even though He created living characters and even with the ability to make their own choices (how cool is that?  ), He still has it all planned out how it's going to end, though He might have to tweak the story here and there if the characters don't follow the script. In other words, though God doesn't change, sometimes His creatures do and that's where - I think - prayer comes in. If we're aligned with God's will, He "tweaks" things - even using our prayers - so that His plan sort of gets re-aligned after somebody messed it up. I can imagine Him plugging in an intention that someone prayed for into a spot in the Story that was sort of messed up by someone's sin and He sees where the answer to that prayer would be a good fit for His plan to get things back on track - and it's great for the pray-er and the prayed-for, too . Everybody wins, eh? (That's my understanding of it for now, anyway, until someone or something comes along and helps me understand it better). But anyway...  - sorry... To get back on track with this story - or topic, rather... even though we make our own choices, He sees the choices we will make and so, OK, I kinda get God outside of Time. God is Eternal and Timeless. But now... time within Eternity... that confuses me.
I mean, if there's no time in the Afterlife, then how is it that we spend "time" in Purgatory? When we pray Rosaries for those in Purgatory it lessens their "time," right? I guess I'm just confused about how time is related to the Eternal things. For instance, how is it that we "hurt" Jesus by our sins if He has already (in time) died and rose and ascended and is now in [the Eternal] Heaven where there's no sadness? Did He just weep for sinners once, while He was still on earth? or does He still weep for us, eternally in Heaven (but how can this be if Heaven is full of everlasting joy?) What about the angels (eternal beings from Heaven) that "mourned" when Jesus was in the Garden? When we're in Heaven (if we make it there) will we not mourn the loss of the souls of our loved ones if they die and don't join us (God forbid)? Or are we going to always be eternally and perfectly happy where we won't have any "time" for sadness? Will we even have any feelings other than pure happiness while we're in Heaven - if it's eternal, after all? Who will weep for the dead and the sinners? No one except those left on earth? What about all those "weeping statues" symbolizing Mary's sorrow for sinners? I'm just confused...  Yeah, I know... some things are just part of Mystery and we'll understand when we get there, but... you know. Just wondering. I mean, if there is an answer in the here and now, I'd sure like to know if anyone has one.  
I just read back a little... maybe part of my problem is that I'm kind of looking at Heaven as a place, maybe, where God lives. So maybe I need to understand Him as not only being outside of time, but outside of place? Which begs the question, "WHAT IN THE WORLD IS HEAVEN, THEN?" (Oops, Heaven isn't in the world, is it?  ) - and don't tell me it's another "dimension" (what does that really mean, after all?) I'm still confused...
(Btw, hope I'm not being clear as mud as I know sometimes I am...  )
JMJ
- Cheri
Last edited on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 12:12 am by Talithacumi
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Jim Anderson
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 06:38 pm |
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Was Marcus' comment on the Deep In Scripture radio program this week? Neither Marcus nor I remember the subject coming up. Perhaps it was a radio broadcast of the Journey Home TV progam.
To clarify the subject of the temporal aspect of Purgatory. I'm sure Marcus meant that people in Purgatory do not experience time as we do in eartly time (Greek: chronos). As creatures we will never experience the eternity in which God exists. Purgatory is outside of our time (chronos) but it is in a "time" of its own called kairos in Greek. It is outside of our time but it still has a temporal aspect to it. Kairos is the time experience by those in Purgatory and Heaven.
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scardella
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 06:58 pm |
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Was Marcus' comment on the Deep In Scripture radio program this week? Neither Marcus nor I remember the subject coming up. Perhaps it was a radio broadcast of the Journey Home TV program.
I wasn't paying attention to which program, I just caught that it was Marcus Grodi. All I know for sure is that I was listening to Ave Maria radio on Tuesday afternoon when I heard it. And I just had it on while I was working, so I wasn't necessarily paying attention until I heard that.
To clarify the subject of the temporal aspect of Purgatory. I'm sure Marcus meant that people in Purgatory do not experience time as we do in eartly time (Greek: chronos). As creatures we will never experience the eternity in which God exists. Purgatory is outside of our time (chronos) but it is in a "time" of its own called kairos in Greek. It is outside of our time but it still has a temporal aspect to it. Kairos is the time experience by those in Purgatory and Heaven.
This doesn't make too much sense to me. I understand that the time would be experienced differently because your body and soul are separated in the experience of Purgatory, but I don't see why it would be a different time than our own.
Plus, if we're in perfection in Heaven, why would we have to experience time, since time is a measure of change? I don't understand why we would experience Heaven with the same type of experience as Purgatory if Purgatory is a passing thing explicitly about change (ie becoming perfected by God's grace) but Heaven is not change.
Last edited on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 07:01 pm by scardella
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 07:21 pm |
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We can't fully understand these things. It's very deep waters. But we know that purgatory and heaven are vastly different realms (and dimensions?) than our own. Pope John Paul II was making this point in some of his comments on the topic. According to one report (the documentation of which is unfortunately lost):
In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.
"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]
For a general treatment, see the Catholic Encyclopedia articles on "Time" and "Eternity." Perhaps its "Purgatory" article touches upon the questions you ask, too.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 07:41 pm |
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Hi Cheri,
Good questions. Like I said above, we can't fully comprehend all these things. But I'll try to offer a few "solutions" to some of your queries.
I used to understand it even less, though, so I suppose it's one of those on-going processing things...
That's true of all of us. We're all learnin' all the time (hopefully, anyway).
For instance, I used to be confused about free will and predestination. I used to think, how could God know everything I'm going to do if I have free will?
Because causing and knowing are two different things. I pretty much "know" that the sun will come up tomorrow (well, the universe or the earth may come to an end tonight, so that it won't rise, but you know . . .). I know for sure that I will exist tomorrow, whether dead or alive. I didn't cause, either, though. Likewise, God being outside of time and omniscient doesn't mean He causes everything we do. He gives the grace that enables us to act upon it and be saved, for sure, but it doesn't wipe out our free choice. He knows it but we still do it in our own time.
- and poor Judas! If he was destined to hand Jesus over, then what choice did he have?
Not at all. God doesn't predestine evil. He uses the evil choices that men make in His Providence for good (as the patriarch Joseph said, and as Paul alludes to in Romans 8:28). In other words, God's Providence incorporates men's free will choices, but when they choose evil, that wasn't God's choice or predetermination. Calvinists may teach this (though even many of them will deny that they do) but Catholicism and most Christian belief-systems do not.
But now I understand that God doesn't pull our strings, but He is outside of time and He sees all of time laid out in front of Him; He's the Author of Life and the scroll is laid out in front of Him where He can see it from beginning to end,
Yep; He's like an author and his fictional book (C.S. Lewis's cool analogy).
and even though He created living characters and even with the ability to make their own choices (how cool is that? ), He still has it all planned out how it's going to end, though He might have to tweak the story here and there if the characters don't follow the script. In other words, though God doesn't change, sometimes His creatures do and that's where - I think - prayer comes in.
Exactly. And prayer is God marvelously including us in His overall plan.
If we're aligned with God's will, He "tweaks" things - even using our prayers - so that His plan sort of gets re-aligned after somebody messed it up.
Actually no one even messes it up, because God is always in ultimate control, but from our finite, limited perspective it makes sense to speak in such a fashion.
I can imagine Him plugging in an intention that someone prayed for into a spot in the Story that was sort of messed up by someone's sin and He sees where the answer to that prayer would be a good fit for His plan to get things back on track - and it's great for the pray-er and the prayed-for, too . Everybody wins, eh? (That's my understanding of it for now, anyway, until someone or something comes along and helps me understand it better).
We win to the extent that we are trying to follow God and His will. If we end up in hell, of course, we don't win at all. And that will be the damned person's fault: not God's.
But anyway... - sorry... To get back on track with this story - or topic, rather... even though we make our own choices, He sees the choices we will make and so, OK, I kinda get God outside of Time. God is Eternal and Timeless. But now... time within Eternity... that confuses me.
I mean, if there's no time in the Afterlife, then how is it that we spend "time" in Purgatory?
I think it is only in a manner of speaking, or else another dimension that is very difficult for us to comprehend. It's like sleeping. We go to bed and the next thing we know we're awake, and it seems like little time has passed. But in fact 6-8 hours have gone by. So time can (kinda sorta) "change" according to how we experience or perceive it.
When we pray Rosaries for those in Purgatory it lessens their "time," right?
It helps them in some fashion: not necessarily as a lesser "time." That started mainly as a way to quantify the penances that the Church gave out. It then was applied to purgatory, as a way to make it more comprehensible to simple folk.
I guess I'm just confused about how time is related to the Eternal things. For instance, how is it that we "hurt" Jesus by our sins if He has already (in time) died and rose and ascended and is now in [the Eternal] Heaven where there's no sadness? Did He just weep for sinners once, while He was still on earth? or does He still weep for us, eternally in Heaven (but how can this be if Heaven is full of everlasting joy?)
I think there is a sense in which God grieves over sin and rebellion; sure. I don't know all the ins and outs of this, though, by a long shot. It's extremely complex.
What about the angels (eternal beings from Heaven) that "mourned" when Jesus was in the Garden? When we're in Heaven (if we make it there) will we not mourn the loss of the souls of our loved ones if they die and don't join us (God forbid)?
An often asked question . . . I understand this myself (just speculation) by figuring that God will have to wipe out those memories, lest we be sad when He wants us to be happy and joyful.
Or are we going to always be eternally and perfectly happy where we won't have any "time" for sadness?
Let's hope, huh? We've had enough sadness in this life . . .
Will we even have any feelings other than pure happiness while we're in Heaven - if it's eternal, after all? Who will weep for the dead and the sinners? No one except those left on earth?
Once all are in eternity something will have to change in us, so that we're not grieving over lost loved ones. That's why I think God will wipe out their memory.
What about all those "weeping statues" symbolizing Mary's sorrow for sinners? I'm just confused...
Well, Mary is a creature. There is nothing in the Bible indicating that she can't grieve, as indeed the souls under the altar in heaven do (Rev 6:9-10).
Yeah, I know... some things are just part of Mystery and we'll understand when we get there, but... you know. Just wondering. I mean, if there is an answer in the here and now, I'd sure like to know if anyone has one.
I think you have a wonderfully inquiring mind. Don't ever stop being that way; but we all have to recognize (as it looks like you do) that there are spiritual mysteries we can't totally wrap our minds and logic around. We can understand them only so far and then we have to accept the paradox of mystery. But these things aren't irrational.
I just read back a little... maybe part of my problem is that I'm kind of looking at Heaven as a place, maybe, where God lives. So maybe I need to understand Him as not only being outside of time, but outside of place?
Yes. It's another dimension. Technically, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are spirits, and not located anywhere because a spirit has no dimensions (if I have my Thomistic categories correct). A spirit is neither in time nor space as we are. That's where it gets back to the purgatory and time business . . .
Which begs the question, "WHAT IN THE WORLD IS HEAVEN, THEN?" (Oops, Heaven isn't in the world, is it? ) - and don't tell me it's another "dimension" (what does that really mean, after all?) I'm still confused...
It's where God is and where sin ain't allowed no more!  I think that is the best answer we can give, actually . . . I wasn't just trying to be cute.
Last edited on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 07:47 pm by Dave Armstrong
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scardella
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Posted: Thu Jun 12th, 2008 07:58 pm |
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In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.
I understand that place (aka location) is inadequate to describe Purgatory, because location is a physical thing, and the soul is spiritual. Without a body to have location, the purgating soul cannot be in Purgatory as if it were a place. (As a side idle thought, perhaps ghosts are souls in Purgatory?)
However, once again, the second bolded part is where I'm having issues.
Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1] That makes sense to me, and I agree w/ that. My question is in terms of time.
Catholic Encyclopedia's article on Purgatory includes this (emphasis mine):
The very reasons assigned for the existence of purgatory make for its passing character. We pray, we offer sacrifice for souls therein detained that "God in mercy may forgive every fault and receive them into the bosom of Abraham" (Const. Apost., P. G., I col. 1144); and Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with theLast Judgment . "But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before thatlast and strictest judgment."
Another question: Any place I can read an article on chronos vs. kairos?
Last edited on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 08:00 pm by scardella
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri Jun 13th, 2008 12:47 am |
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Here's one by an Orthodox priest.
And here's a Protestant treatment.
And the Protestant reference Vine's Expository Dictionary on both terms.
No one's denying that purgatory does not last till eternity; only that one's experience in purgatory is different from the time we experience on earth. The difference of experience does not entail the thing experienced being of the same nature.
Last edited on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 12:49 am by Dave Armstrong
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 03:58 am |
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Dave,
Hi. Don't have time for a real in-depth response to your response (aren't you lucky? ), but just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to think through my questions and answer them.
Just a note about these quotes:
"For instance, I used to be confused about free will and predestination. I used to think, how could God know everything I'm going to do if I have free will?
Because causing and knowing are two different things. I pretty much "know" that the sun will come up tomorrow (well, the universe or the earth may come to an end tonight, so that it won't rise, but you know . . .). I know for sure that I will exist tomorrow, whether dead or alive. I didn't cause, either, though. Likewise, God being outside of time and omniscient doesn't mean He causes everything we do. He gives the grace that enables us to act upon it and be saved, for sure, but it doesn't wipe out our free choice. He knows it but we still do it in our own time.
- and poor Judas! If he was destined to hand Jesus over, then what choice did he have?
Not at all. God doesn't predestine evil. He uses the evil choices that men make in His Providence for good (as the patriarch Joseph said, and as Paul alludes to in Romans 8:28). In other words, God's Providence incorporates men's free will choices, but when they choose evil, that wasn't God's choice or predetermination. Calvinists may teach this (though even many of them will deny that they do) but Catholicism and most Christian belief-systems do not."
Just wanted you to understand that I used to ask those questions, but now I understand better. I was giving an example of how our learning progresses over time (if we seek to learn, at least). But probably you were just expounding a little and that's OK by me; anything that someone can contribute to better my - or anyone else's - understanding is welcome.
So, thanks for your input! It makes good sense and is very helpful... except there's one tiny little detail that still has me a little confused:
"What about all those "weeping statues" symbolizing Mary's sorrow for sinners? I'm just confused...
Well, Mary is a creature. There is nothing in the Bible indicating that she can't grieve, as indeed the souls under the altar in heaven do (Rev 6:9-10)."
OK, not to get too picky, but earlier in your response you had said that when we get to Heaven that maybe God sort of wipes away our memories of anything sad so that we will be completely happy. Wouldn't this apply to Mary as well? (As you say, she is a creature like the rest of us). Just trying to clarify a little, though I know it's not really something anyone has a clear answer about... I know we won't see clearly til we get to Heaven, as St. Paul said.
Anyway... I'll quit for now. God bless +
JMJ
- Cheri
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EMarshallBuckles
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Posted: Sat Jun 14th, 2008 04:26 am |
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Well, of course, I am just personally speculating here, however, I have gotten the impression, over the years, that, possibly, when one moves out of this life, time may become irrelevant and that things which previously affected us - gravity, dense molecules in a wall or door, for examples - may no longer affect us or limit us. Just my speculation. As for Mary, apparently (yeah, I know, "Well DUH, Marshall, ya THINK?"  ) Mary is one very special Lady! Although taken up to heaven, she may choose and be allowed to do certain things in service to our Lord Jesus Christ such as feeling sorrow for sinners. A very touching thought if true. As for purgatory, from time to time, I have read and heard of people who were brought back into this life after having been, according to all earthly measures, dead. Some have reported of being fully in a state of consciousness, of awareness and experiencing things which indicated to them that, indeed, there IS an afterlife. Some people have reported suddenly finding themselves (their soul, their innermost being) suddenly in the presence of another being whom they perceived, somehow, is the Son of God. Some have reported seeing their entire life pass before them, seeing things that were good, pleasing to God, and seeing things that were wrong choices, sin whice were NOT pleasing to God. Who knows? Perhaps it is possible that those people who had those experiences and returned to this life may have been "given another chance", so to speak. Just speculating, I wonder if perhaps, if one is not allowed to come back, for whatever reason, one might be spending some "time", if that exists in the afterlife, reviewing one's life, getting instruction about "here you met the mark, here you fell short", in preparation for heaven. Of course, Annie and I will probably be putting out and stacking folding chairs and sweeping up as well, ha, ha!
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Jun 16th, 2008 07:04 pm |
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Hi Cheri,
Just wanted you to understand that I used to ask those questions, but now I understand better. I was giving an example of how our learning progresses over time (if we seek to learn, at least). But probably you were just expounding a little and that's OK by me; anything that someone can contribute to better my - or anyone else's - understanding is welcome.
So, thanks for your input! It makes good sense and is very helpful...
You're most welcome. I did understand that many of these were past questions for you. But since they have been expressed in public, I took the opportunity to answer for the sake of others who still may have these questions.
except there's one tiny little detail that still has me a little confused:
"What about all those "weeping statues" symbolizing Mary's sorrow for sinners? I'm just confused...
Well, Mary is a creature. There is nothing in the Bible indicating that she can't grieve, as indeed the souls under the altar in heaven do (Rev 6:9-10)."
OK, not to get too picky, but earlier in your response you had said that when we get to Heaven that maybe God sort of wipes away our memories of anything sad so that we will be completely happy. Wouldn't this apply to Mary as well? (As you say, she is a creature like the rest of us). Just trying to clarify a little, though I know it's not really something anyone has a clear answer about... I know we won't see clearly til we get to Heaven, as St. Paul said.
The wiping away of all tears appears (far as we know) at the end of the age (see Rev 21:1-4), after the Judgment (20:12-15), after the devil himself has been totally defeated (20:10), so it wouldn't apply right now to Mary. She is still working to help God save souls, and until all are saved who are to be saved, she will pray and weep for the lost souls and those who would be lost, but for God's grace.
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