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Justinmartyr
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| Joined: | Wed Aug 8th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Justin | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | cradle catholic |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 03:30 am |
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Hello, first post here-I am a young person who is solidly convinced through the intellectual, rational beauty of Catholic theology of the truh of the magisterium; but one concept that is the pillar for almost all Catholic teaching, ie the complex relationship between free will and grace, remains a problem for me on both an intellectual level and on a more practical, spiritual level. This topic encompasses everything from salvation, justification, predestination- to even the very reason for our sentient existence- that is to know, love and serve God by our free choice in the hope of a perfect, eternal union with Him.
Here we go ( I really want to avoid, as much as possible, loaded theological terms that I'm not sure I even understand in full):
1.) Every 'good' thing comes from God (for every relevant situation, this is done, or really defined by, 'grace').
2.)'Good things' encompass the following: good works, salvation
3.) As sentient beings possessing 'free will', it follows that we must freely choose God and His grace of salvation (through our avoidence of sin, our doing of good works etc.)
4.) If every good thing comes from God, God must be the initiator and choose to dispense His grace for (say) Jonny to do good work X, for Jonny to avoid mortal sin X, and ultimately, throughout a lifetime of God giving Johnny various graces, Jonny receives the ultimate grace of final perserverance and thus, ultimately, salvation.
Because every good thing Johnny does (in any context) is motivated by an initial grace from God- how can Johnny truly have a free will to choose good. Johnny has a free will to choose bad, but Johnny cannot have a free will to choose good. Given the fallen nature of man with original sin (and thus already predisposed to 'freely' [and I use this word almost sardonicaly] choose bad) how can it be said that the Catholic doctrine of predestination is anything more than a convoluted form of Calvanism. Ultimately, when it comes to the achievment of good things (good works and salvation) man can only be passive because man cannot initiate. Sure, he can be 'active' in 'choosing'- but only after God has so 'zapped' him with the grace to do so.
Where does this 'cooperation' between free will and grace ever really become a cooperation and not a grace+luckyman= salvation (calvanistic) equation.
I understand that it could lead to a sin of pride to think that one's own independant, free will choice got him salvation (even though he did nothing to merit that free gift of salvation originaly). But that does not satisfy what I see as a contradiction.
Where does God's grace end and my free will begin?
This question plagues me. I try and comfort myself by thinking "well, God exsists in the infinite and eternal, and I am trapped in the finite, so I thus cannot understand how this supposed 'cooperation' really works"- strip away the verbage and I'm really saying "well, its a mystery." But with a theological teaching as essential as this, upon which every other teaching rests, such a simple way of thinking is not acceptable.
I have read the newadvent article on this, and frankly, it left me more confused. I understand that an active debate in The Church on this topic exsists within the bounds of approved Catholic theology. Perhaps my answer lies within that article, but I simply could not understand- perhaps someone could chop it up a bit and explain it to me- or provide me with new insight- but above all, I would love any correction in my understanding of Catholic Doctrine in this matter- if I have mistaken any aspect I would like to know. Sorry for the lengthy post, thanks to anyone who can help me out!
Justin
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 08:40 am |
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Justinmartyr wrote: Hello, first post here-
Welcome to the Coming Home Network. We're happy to have you with us. Substantive replies will come later, but first I wanted to welcome you to our forum and let you know how thrilled we are that you've chosen to join us, and to deepen your knowledge of the Catholic faith.
Feel free to participate in any of our discussions. No questions, sincerely asked, are off limits. Our focus is to provide information to those who are not Catholic and are interested in learning more about our faith, but cradle Catholics seeking to learn more about their faith are welcomed here as well. We are a rather rare breed around here as most of us who were Catholic have left to join other churches and have found their way -- or are on their way -- home. (I am also a cradle Catholic, and I've never left the faith.)
Welcome again. I look forward to your participation and reading your faith story.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 09:31 am |
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Hello, Justin. What you bring up is, of course, a mystery. But you seem to be studious enough, so I’ll offer a few hints and places to look. (Incidentally, I agree that the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia on the New Advent site is quite opaque. I and several others of my acquaintance have gained very little from reading it.)
First, yes, there is a certain similarity between Catholic and Calvinist thought on free will. But as you know, Catholic thought does not end up where Calvin did, in the denial of free will. We affirm both (positive) predestination and free will. The two historical approaches to this double affirmation are those of the Dominicans, after St. Thomas Aquinas, and the Jesuits, after Juan Molinos. The 400-year debate you refer to is this competition between the two traditions. It was called off by the pope a couple of centuries ago, however, so it is not ongoing. The reason he asked the two sides to cease arguing was that they were making no progress in finding a true solution.
Since I was raised as a Methodist (I converted many years ago), I found their Arminian approach to the question of free will was close enough to the Molinist view in the Catholic Church that I did not consider that there was a problem. However, a couple of years ago I did read up on the Thomist approach and found it rather more reasonable. (The Church does not prohibit anyone from believing either approach, however. The whole question remains open, although not being actively pursued by theologians at the moment.)
Aquinas attempts to resolve the dilemma you propose by referring it to secondary causality (Summa Theologica, PtI.Q19.a8). Just as we can affirm the action of tides eroding a shoreline (my example), so also we can affirm the will of a man to take a certain course of action. The Thomist theologian Bossuet summed it up as follows: “Is there anything more absurd than to say that the will is not free in its act, because God efficaciously wills it to be free?” (Traité du libre arbitre, chapter 7).
A book which may help you to work out a satisfactory solution to your question is Predestination by Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, OP. (available from TAN Books; the author taught at the Angelicum in Rome for 50 years and was the doctoral mentor for the future John Paul II). While it proposes the Thomist argument, it does lay out rather thoroughly the Molinist argument as well. One chapter in particular, Part III, Chapter VIII, entitled “The Divine Motion and the Freedom of Our Salutary Acts” deals specifically with the question you bring up.
In tandem with the question of predestination, it is good to study the Catholic doctrine of divine providence. I found this approach especially helpful, because it lays the groundwork for the study of predestination and free will. The same author offers Providence, which fills the bill admirably.
Finally, you complain that we cannot just throw up our hands, saying, “It’s a mystery.” To some extent I agree; just because we cannot know everything about a topic doesn’t mean we can know nothing. On the other hand, there will come a time when we have to recognize the limits of our created intellect, for it ultimately it is a mystery. So we must not expect complete and airtight answers to this or any ultimate question.
David
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 185 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 10:47 am |
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Justinmartyr wrote: Where does God's grace end and my free will begin?
This question plagues me. I try and comfort myself by thinking "well, God exsists in the infinite and eternal, and I am trapped in the finite, so I thus cannot understand how this supposed 'cooperation' really works"- strip away the verbage and I'm really saying "well, its a mystery." But with a theological teaching as essential as this, upon which every other teaching rests, such a simple way of thinking is not acceptable.
The Council of Trent dealt with the issue of "free will" in session 6:5. ... [T]hey who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.
Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, (Zech 1:3) we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply: Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, (Lam 5:21) we confess that we need the grace of God.
I don't tend to think of it as "free will ending and grace beginning" or vice versa, but rather the blending of my free will and God's will. In other words, when we pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven", we're not praying that God will get up off His lazy butt and do something, we're praying that we will align our wills with God's, so that His will is done on earth! We can do this freely because God has given us the ability (though we don't always exercise it) to avoid bending our wills to our own desires.
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Sat Aug 11th, 2007 12:26 am |
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Hello,
Hi,
first post here-I am a young person who is solidly convinced through the intellectual, rational beauty of Catholic theology of the truh of the magisterium; but one concept that is the pillar for almost all Catholic teaching, ie the complex relationship between free will and grace, remains a problem for me on both an intellectual level and on a more practical, spiritual level. This topic encompasses everything from salvation, justification, predestination- to even the very reason for our sentient existence- that is to know, love and serve God by our free choice in the hope of a perfect, eternal union with Him.
Agreed.
Here we go ( I really want to avoid, as much as possible, loaded theological terms that I'm not sure I even understand in full):
1.) Every 'good' thing comes from God (for every relevant situation, this is done, or really defined by, 'grace').
Agreed.
2.)'Good things' encompass the following: good works, salvation
Agreed.
3.) As sentient beings possessing 'free will', it follows that we must freely choose God and His grace of salvation (through our avoidence of sin, our doing of good works etc.)
Agreed.
4.) If every good thing comes from God, God must be the initiator and choose to dispense His grace for (say) Jonny to do good work X, for Jonny to avoid mortal sin X, and ultimately, throughout a lifetime of God giving Johnny various graces, Jonny receives the ultimate grace of final perserverance and thus, ultimately, salvation.
Yes, but...
Remember that there are different types of graces AND that we must make receiving these graces "habitual".
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.
Consider the pagans. What grace have they received? Not the grace of conversion? Yet the Church teaches they can be saved, can't they?
Romans 2
15 Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,
Therefore they have no excuse. God's grace, the law, is already in their hearts. This grace awaits their cooperation.
Where does this 'cooperation' between free will and grace ever really become a cooperation and not a grace+luckyman= salvation (calvanistic) equation.
That , of course, is for God to know and us to find out. I'm not certain that the line is the same for everyone. A study of the Saints will show that some are cooperating with God in the first years of their life. One, the Virgin Mary, at her conception. Many more at the twilight of their life.
Each one of us receives the grace we need to be saved from God. But the weakness of our human nature may not be so equally distributed.
I understand that it could lead to a sin of pride to think that one's own independant, free will choice got him salvation (even though he did nothing to merit that free gift of salvation originaly). But that does not satisfy what I see as a contradiction.
I may be wrong, but isn't free will itself a grace? Whether we use it or misuse it, free will is the grace of dignity before God. It is God treating us as His children. Almost as though He has given us part of His glory.
Where does God's grace end and my free will begin?
God's grace and your free will never end. Whether you ever cooperate with God or not, the two go hand in hand throughout your life. When you recognize God's grace and decide to cooperate with it is like giving up your free will. Like sacrificing it to God. That is the basis of a certain prayer, "I fuse myself in the Divine Will". It is what we aim for as we travel down the Purgative Way, ultimate union with God. Again, that is your choice when you decide to accept God's grace. Where do you want it to begin? Do you want it to begin now or after you've sowed your oats?
This question plagues me. I try and comfort myself by thinking "well, God exsists in the infinite and eternal, and I am trapped in the finite, so I thus cannot understand how this supposed 'cooperation' really works"- strip away the verbage and I'm really saying "well, its a mystery." But with a theological teaching as essential as this, upon which every other teaching rests, such a simple way of thinking is not acceptable.
There is a little bit of a lack of faith or distrust of God which plagues us when trying to understand this doctrine. It is as though Satan is again telling us that God is playing games, "You will not die." he says again.
Trust God. His grace is offered, not forced upon you. God respects your free will.
I have read the newadvent article on this, and frankly, it left me more confused. I understand that an active debate in The Church on this topic exsists within the bounds of approved Catholic theology. Perhaps my answer lies within that article, but I simply could not understand- perhaps someone could chop it up a bit and explain it to me- or provide me with new insight- but above all, I would love any correction in my understanding of Catholic Doctrine in this matter- if I have mistaken any aspect I would like to know. Sorry for the lengthy post, thanks to anyone who can help me out!
Justin
I'm not an expert. But that is how I understand this very difficult doctrine. I hope that helps you however.
Sincerely,
Juan
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