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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
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| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 11:29 am |
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| Last night at mass our homily was on the question of "are you saved?" as we might answer as catholics. The answer being "I am being saved" as opposed to "I am saved." This morning I was flipping through some channels on TV and caught the last half of a sermon by the church I used to attend. The pastor was preaching on the parable of the servants given the talents, and how they had to use those talents for him. The pastor said he knew we would be held accountable for how we use our talents and he wanted to be able to hear God say to him "Well done, good and faithful servant." How is this different from what catholics believe is faith and good works? Do protestants believe God will say, alright you believed I am your God but you didn't think you needed to serve me in any way, you didn't use the talents I gave you. But since you said you believed I'm your saviour then come on in to heaven? You prayed to me and called yourself my follower but you did nothing? That's not what the pastor was saying, so it seems they are teaching the same thing catholics do only not calling it the same thing.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 11:53 am |
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Faith and works:
That's not what the pastor was saying, so it seems they are teaching the same thing catholics do only not calling it the same thing.
I believe that most thoughtful Christians, no matter their affiliation, do accept that the two concepts rightly belong together. However, because of the polemics of the Reformers, actual use of the word “works” is anathema. So they speak of “using one’s talents,” “conforming our lives to the gospel” or “believing and obeying” instead.
Therefore, when one of them begins to investigate Catholicism, what offends him is that he encounters the “w” word, not that we are supposed to obey God’s commandments. It’s just a problem of semantics.
David
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 08:47 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote: Last night at mass our homily was on the question of "are you saved?" as we might answer as catholics. The answer being "I am being saved" as opposed to "I am saved." This morning I was flipping through some channels on TV and caught the last half of a sermon by the church I used to attend. The pastor was preaching on the parable of the servants given the talents, and how they had to use those talents for him. The pastor said he knew we would be held accountable for how we use our talents and he wanted to be able to hear God say to him "Well done, good and faithful servant." How is this different from what catholics believe is faith and good works? Do protestants believe God will say, alright you believed I am your God but you didn't think you needed to serve me in any way, you didn't use the talents I gave you. But since you said you believed I'm your saviour then come on in to heaven? You prayed to me and called yourself my follower but you did nothing? That's not what the pastor was saying, so it seems they are teaching the same thing catholics do only not calling it the same thing.
Marsha
This is an interesting phenomenon, when I first became sick, I used to spend an enormous amount of time lurking at Cathlic Answers forums following threads on Faith & Works. These threads were very long, detailed and the users involved from both camps, Cathlic/Protestant were very knowledable people that knew their faith. Why I refer to it as a phenomenon is because these protestants would argue so vigoriously and no matter how much the catholics would tell them, give evidence, church teaching, etc and show that the catholic church has never taught salvation is received upon or because of our works alone. They would go on for days & days, both saying the exact same teaching, just using different words and never once did a protestant get it through his head that the church does on teach, salvation by works alone and she never has. It was like this strange hold on their brains that would not allow them to listen to the truth that the RCC teaches. All they could stay with was Martin Luther said the church taught this and no matter what the evidence their minds would not budge, when it was so clear that we both believed nearly the exact same thing.
I had thought maybe I'd go find some of Luthers writings and try to figure out what or why this such a mental block between us. I decided that I was going to use a protestant source and study his writings. As I read along, I found that much of it was very consistent with Catholic teaching and I had wondered for a time, what our problems were? I then ran into writings that reminded me of the way a person who has been drinking will dwell on some particular topic in a conversation and the will just ramble on about it in a very heavey emphasis way. In some of the writings on Faith and works, he just dwells and drills the reader in nearly every sentance about how works are basically bad and it gives the impression to the reader that for positive the catholic church taught or teaches these things. As badly as he rambles & dwells on this topic, I'm very surprised that more protestants don't realize that his writings at time give the impression of a very troubled & unstable mind. So in these writings he leaves the protestant christian the firm belief that the church teaches salvation by works and somehow this stuff get into their minds and they are not able to see past it. Even when they are in dialogue with both parties agreeing on the topic, but using different terms.
Through my own private study, I've often wondered if maybe the catholic people in Germany at the time, had somehow began believing that somehow their works were going to get them to heaven and Luther being in Germany was trying to correct a mis-understood belief that the German people had begun believing. The long distant communication in the world at that time, was not even close to what we have today. Maybe there were a group of German priest that had fallen into this error??? I don't know but I think there must be something more to the reason why ML, took off in this tangent. I understand that problem with indulgences at the time, but that did not require a schism, it was taken care of in the Counsel of Trent in Luther's life time. He did not change his mind and come back, so I can't help but think there must be more to the issues that I'm missing.
I do know and have experienced in my own life, Cathlocs INO that will just go through the barest necesities of living the faith, that if a person out side the catholic church would recognize and believe that they are only practicing their faith by theri works. It can really give other christians a bad taste for the catholic church that they would get the impression that these catholics did believe by their actions of going through the motions without really honestly learning or living the faith. I can see why protestants could say, AHha, they do believ in salvation by works.
I actually believe that those that do the most damage and cause scandal to the Holy Catholic church, are not the protestant apologist, or fellas as James white & Lorraine Boettner. They are catholics that do not stand by the churches doctrines, faith/morals and that live their lives in complete contradiction of what mother church teaches, or let everyone believe they are catholic when it's convienent, such as many politicians. Those are the ones who cause the worst damage to the church. IMHO
I really like to encourage Catholics and protestants to read some of Luthers writings, don't depend on someone elses interpretation of his writings, see them for yourself. I'm sure that many others christians would take a longer look at what he teaches.http://www.educ.msu.edu/homepages/laurence/reformation/index.htm http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-luther.html
Here is a small section of one of Luthers writings predicting that even his words would be twisted to support errors. http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-quoting.txt
Because I see that the mobs are always growing, the number of
errors are always increasing and Satan's rage and ruin have no
end, I wish to confess with this work my faith before God and the
whole world, point by point. I am doing this, lest certain people
cite me or my writings, while I am alive or after I am dead, to
support their errors, as those fanatics, the Sacramentarians and
the Anabaptists, have begun to do. I will remain in this
confession until my death (God help me!), will depart from this
world in it, and appear before the Judgment Seat of our Lord Jesus
Christ.
So that no one will say after my death, ``If Luther was alive, he
would teach and believe this article differently, because he did
not think it through sufficiently,'' I state the following, once
and for all: I, by God's grace, I have diligently examined these
articles in the light of passages throughout the Scriptures. I
have worked on them repeatedly and you can be sure that I want to
defend them, in the same way that I have just defended the
Sacrament of the Altar.
I am strangely fascinated by his works, He does not exactly teach what I thought and believed he did.
God Bless, Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1400 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jul 23rd, 2007 08:41 pm |
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| That's an interesting perspective to look at it from, about Martin Luther. I don't know anything about his teachings or his position on faith vs. works. I just know that in the baptist church I used to belong to there were a lot of "ministries" going on: trips to visit senior citizens, repairing homes of the needy and elderly, car oil changes for single women, all of these things would be considered "good works" by us.
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Fri Jul 27th, 2007 02:00 am |
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My impression of the difference between Protestants and Catholics on salvation by faith alone or faith and works is this.
Protestants seem to believe that salvation is accomplished simply by an expression of faith alone. At that time, a man is made just and his works are now pleasing to God. Before this expression of faith, this man's works are not pleasing to God. They stand on this verse, amongst others:
Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.
Catholics believe salvation is an ongoing process. In fact, we believe justification is an ongoing process. Although justification does occur immediately upon Baptism, thereafter we must strive to maintain it by avoiding sin. We call this state of justification the "state of grace".
We stand upon this verse, as well as others:
James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
The misunderstanding that most Protestants have concerning the Catholic doctrine is that they omit the word "faith" and works. They claim Catholics rely only on their works. Not on their faith. But St. James again says it best:
James 2
18 .... shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
Sincerely,
Juan
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Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1400 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jul 27th, 2007 10:56 am |
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| I like the James 2:18 quote. Some protestants think catholics are trying to earn salvation, instead of "showing their faith." And since they don't fully understand why we make the sign of the cross or genuflect, they think we are making empty or unnecessary signs of piety. I have great hope that with the relatively new printing of the catechism, the growth of catholic media, and the new interests in echumenism, the world will come to understand the teachings of the church much better.
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