 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 754 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 06:44 pm |
|
Below is a section of the text of a conversation I'm having with a very knowledgeable friend. She's way above me in what she's read and in knowledge, but I'd like to be able to respond to her comments. Below is her latest salvo (it's a friendly salvo  ). I'm not even completely sure what she's trying to say. Can you help me decipher her thoughts and give a response?
Luther was odd, to say the least, but not the only one of his kind. "Faith Alone" is not the best definition of Justification. Martin Luther was not a man of humble speech either. He was crass, rude and crude. However, "Faith Alone" is really only a very short paraphrase of the doctrines of Justification and Sanctification. Luther certainly had his time in history, but he was not the first to question the church's theology on Justification and Sanctification (he was however the first "not" to be executed for his remarks).
Some of the the best passages (among hundreds of others) regarding "how" we are Justified and Sanctified are Romans 2-4 and Ephesians 2. The [Roman] Church's doctrine was/is that Christ is "being" imputed to us as we partake of Christ in the Eucharist. That is, that we "are being" Justified and Sanctified.
The Reformed doctrine is that the Scriptures say God "has decreed" from everlasting that Christ's righteousness is imputed to his people as a "declaration" from God. Justification and Sanctification are a gift just as Faith is a gift. Our salvation is a work of God from beginning to end.
I think that at this point in history we are no longer talking apples and oranges, but rather these doctrines have more to do with semantics and specific definitions that differing groups of Christians give to these doctrines.
In my own life's experience, I believe that God called me from death to life. I know a gift was given to me and I know that I didn't ask for it and certainly don't deserve it. All my righteousness is as "filthy rags" ( But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.......Is.64:6). Christ's righteousness was imputed to me. My sanctification is in His hands. Do I participate in my own sanctification?
That there is the question...................................
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5312 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 07:30 pm |
|
The best response is the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification which was reached by the World Lutheran Federation (including the Evangelical Lutheran Church) and the Roman Catholic Church, and has also been accepted by the World Methodist Federation. The above link will take you directly to the document on the web site of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, so there can be no claim that it is "doctored" by the Catholic Church.
The same document is available from the Vatican. The Vatican version includes an appendix which gives complete references and footnotes hyperlinked to some of the original documents, at least from the Catholic perspective.
You can find unofficial explanations of the document from the web site Religious Tolerance and from Catholic Culture.
The document itself gives a very detailed explanation of those areas of agreement and disagreement.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
Talithacumi
Member
| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 267 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 09:45 pm |
|
JillD wrote: Below is a section of the text of a conversation I'm having with a very knowledgeable friend.
...In my own life's experience, I believe that God called me from death to life. I know a gift was given to me and I know that I didn't ask for it and certainly don't deserve it. All my righteousness is as "filthy rags" ( But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.......Is.64:6). Christ's righteousness was imputed to me. My sanctification is in His hands. Do I participate in my own sanctification?
That there is the question...................................
Jill,
I believe your friend is right: a lot of it is a matter of semantics. I mean, Protestants often go on about how we, as Christians, should not believe that we can "earn our salvation" (thus it is a gift). Catholics believe this just as much as Protestants do. Maybe it isn't a difference in beliefs so much as in attitudes.
Think about it: Most Protestants are into "works" just as much as Catholics. They know they're not going to heaven if they just sit around and don't do anything but live selfish lives. And they'll be the first to spout off the passage about how we should not "be hearers only, but doers of the Word" (paraphrasing... don't have it in front of me) or the passage in James that says "Faith without works is dead." Protestants believe these things every bit as much as Catholics. And see how they live! See how they're always so gung-ho about the Missions and stewardship programs and so on. Oh, they believe in works, alright.
But... "Do I participate in my own sanctification?" Maybe it depends on how one interprets the question. I mean, if it means something like: "Do I have as much say as God to decide whether or not I'm worthy of salvation (and maybe if I work hard enough He'll consider me worthy)?" then the answer is no! None of us are worthy (as your friend suggests). And none of us can give ourselves salvation. Only God can save us. And He did - already! - or perhaps it's better to say He redeemed us. But therein lies the problem with our religious differences, perhaps. It's in the mindset. Just listen to how some Christians talk: "Joe is saved. Tom is not saved." How do they know? How can they make such a statement with such an assurance that they are right? Geesh. Many seem to think that to be saved, all one has to do is pray a "sinner's prayer" and say that they "accept Jesus as their Personal Lord and Savior" (btw, neither of these requirements are mentioned or even hinted at in the Bible...). They will then insist that they are saved and don't have to do anything else, and that if Joe Schmoe says a sinner's pray and accepts Jesus, but Tom doesn't appear to, well, that must mean Joe is saved and Tom isn't. Hm... Whatever happened to the passage that says "Judge not lest ye be judged"? But I think you probably get the point, which is that apparently, in this kind of mindset, "works" don't play any part in salvation. Seems like it's mostly lip service.
But if the question of "participating in my own sanctification" is read something like: "Do I believe that I am redeemed by God, that by my response to His saving grace [as we know, grace is a free gift] I can merit Heaven?" Then I would say the answer is probably yes. We don't make any decision about whether or not we are worthy of going to heaven by the works that we do. It isn't our work that saves us. It is Jesus' death and resurrection that saves us. But! We do participate in our sanctification by responding to that gift.
Let's say you want to move to your little piece of Paradise on earth, and then someone gives you a new car for Christmas (Ok, maybe that's a little extreme, but just bear with me for the purpose of this analogy...). It's a free gift. But if you just leave it sit out in the driveway and never drive it, never tune it up, just ignore it, it will get rusty, the motor will stop working, it will do nothing for you (or anyone else, either, for that matter), you won't go anywhere. You will never reach your Paradise. Why? Because you've not done your part. You've not participated. It's like, "You want a car? OK, I'll give you a car. Here are the keys and everything." But if you don't turn that key in the ignition and start the engine and put the pedal to the medal, no matter how free the gift is, you won't get anywhere. You have to make a move. That's works. That's participation. Do we want salvation? It's there. But we need to turn the key and put our foot on the gas. 
I hope this makes some kind of sense and addresses your question at least a little bit.
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
|
|
|
anfan
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 28 |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 10:20 pm |
|
A good book on this subject is "The Salvation Controvery" by Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers.
Pax
|
|
|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 02:16 am |
|
JillD wrote: Below is a section of the text of a conversation I'm having with a very knowledgeable friend. She's way above me in what she's read and in knowledge, but I'd like to be able to respond to her comments. Below is her latest salvo (it's a friendly salvo ). I'm not even completely sure what she's trying to say. Can you help me decipher her thoughts and give a response?
Luther was odd, to say the least, but not the only one of his kind. "Faith Alone" is not the best definition of Justification. Martin Luther was not a man of humble speech either. He was crass, rude and crude. However, "Faith Alone" is really only a very short paraphrase of the doctrines of Justification and Sanctification. Luther certainly had his time in history, but he was not the first to question the church's theology on Justification and Sanctification (he was however the first "not" to be executed for his remarks). Your friend is right somewhat about Luther here, Unfortunately she's been taught that Luther was some kind of Hero for the christian cause. And I disagree on her statement that he was the only heritic not to be executed. There has been Heresy since day one. In St. John's Gospel and also in the writings of St. Paul they both speak about those who have gotten away from the truth and warn against the Gnostic's or Gnostic ideas. Protestant's for some reason or another try to make Luther out to be some kind of hero and he obviously was not, I think anyone can take a look at our separated issues and see that the christian church is still suffering from his ego & disobedience. Here is a site if you would like to check out some of his writings. http://www.orlutheran.com/html/mlserms.html The site has Luther's writings translated by a Lutheran Pastor.
Some of the the best passages (among hundreds of others) regarding "how" we are Justified and Sanctified are Romans 2-4 and Ephesians 2. The [Roman] Church's doctrine was/is that Christ is "being" imputed to us as we partake of Christ in the Eucharist. That is, that we "are being" Justified and Sanctified. Here is a portion of what the CCC has to say. I've never heard anyone say that we are saved or justified and Santified by the Eucharist alone. Somehow protestants come up with an only one thing that people believe saves them. It's a combination of things with our cooperation.
Man's Vocation Life in the Spirit
4
1996
Our style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: red"Justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[46]
And here is every thing on Justification. http://www.catholicfirst.com/searchcatechism.cfm?action=search Here is an article about Luther's error in his teaching on Justification. http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/05/luthers-error-concerning-justification.html
The Reformed doctrine is that the Scriptures say God "has decreed" from everlasting that Christ's righteousness is imputed to his people as a "declaration" from God. Justification and Sanctification are a gift just as Faith is a gift. Our salvation is a work of God from beginning to end.
The Creeds
2
651
"If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain."[520] The Resurrection above all constitutes the confirmation of all Christ's works and teachings. All truths, even those most inaccessible to human reason, find their style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: red"Justification if Christ by his Resurrection has given the definitive proof of his divine authority, which he had promised.
The Creeds
2
654
The Paschal mystery has two aspects: by his death, Christ liberates us from sin; by his Resurrection, he opens for us the way to a new life. This new life is above all style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: red"Justification that reinstates us in God's grace, "so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."[525] style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: red"Justification consists in both victory over the death caused by sin and a new participation in grace.[526] It brings about filial adoption so that men become Christ's brethren, as Jesus himself called his disciples after his Resurrection: "Go and tell my brethren."[527] We are brethren not by nature, but by the gift of grace, because that adoptive filiation gains us a real share in the life of the only Son, which was fully revealed in his Resurrection.
Here is a little more on Justification. I hope your able to share with your friend. The church does not now or ever has it taught that we can work our way to heaven. I've been periodicaly reading some of Luther's writings this last year, I've found out that most of the things protestants claim he said are not exactly true in most cases. It's strange that even his writings have been taken out of context in many cases. But Luther in one of his last writings warns that just as scripture has been taken out of context and twisted that so will his work's.
I think that at this point in history we are no longer talking apples and oranges, but rather these doctrines have more to do with semantics and specific definitions that differing groups of Christians give to these doctrines.
In my own life's experience, I believe that God called me from death to life. I know a gift was given to me and I know that I didn't ask for it and certainly don't deserve it. All my righteousness is as "filthy rags" ( But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.......Is.64:6). Christ's righteousness was imputed to me. My sanctification is in His hands. Do I participate in my own sanctification?
That there is the question................................... She is right that none of us are worthy of Christs saving grace, But I disagree on whether it requires any thing from us. We have to be open to Gods grace, repent of our sin's and turn to God. (turning, repenting and excepting his grace requires our openness and coroperation) some may call these actions work's. I don't think some of these explanations on what it takes to be justified or santified are very thought out. We are human beings, We have free will, We make choices. If our salvation was solely and entirely no participation from us then all of our criminal element problems would be solved and we'd all be going to heaven. People make choices and some are very bad. Unfortunatley their choices and refusal to repent may get them a one way ticket to Hell.
Man's Vocation Life in the Spirit
4
1989
The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: red"Justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."[38] Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. " style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: red"Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.[39]
People do not Just automaticaly change into new people, we have to want it, The amount of grace given to anyone individual is in direct response to that person's openess & exceptence of grace. Your friend is only repeating the error's which she has been taught, Its a shame but most believe that the church teaches a works alone/Faith alone doctrine. It is not an either/Or situation, It's a both/And. A combination of things that require our exceptence and cooperation. Peace be with you Jill, I hope some of these things help! Did not mean to further confuse. Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
GoFisher
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 111 |
| First Name: | Kathy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Mth Cng Prs UM sang@RC Ep UM (MDiv) Word-Faith Charismatic-RC |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 03:24 am |
|
"Alone" is not in The Bible in reference to being saved by faith. I've heard sermons by several professors and priests and RCIA teachers who noted that fallen Catholic priest, Martin Luther added the word "alone" to his german translation of The Bible.
If you research the "Catholic Answers" website and brochures, you might find something on it. A google search of "Catholic Apologetics" will bring up some good sites. New Advent has good definitions and links in their online Catholic encyclopedia.
Remember in Paul wrote to the Christians at Thessalonica to hold fast to the [oral] traditions they had been taught [by those who preached The Gospel to them out loud].
All Christians who are disciples of The Lord Jesus should continue this tradition by spreading The Gospel by word of mouth to the worldly, but first, pray that those along their paths will be made ready soil to receive the seed of The Word.
____________________
Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
|
|
|
GoFisher
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 111 |
| First Name: | Kathy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Mth Cng Prs UM sang@RC Ep UM (MDiv) Word-Faith Charismatic-RC |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 19th, 2006 03:32 am |
|
When you love, you give. When you obey The Lord, you do all you can to kick out the enemy in your life, and help others serve and be holy too.
When you love The Lord and you love others sacrificially so much as The Lord loves us, then The Holy Spirit living in you will prompt you to want to serve Him with joy.
The Lord loves a cheerful giver. He who has been forgiven much loves much.
The Lord told The Hebrews, "If you love Me, obey Me," so we should do that too.
"For God so loved the world that He GAVE... "
So do the great commandment AND the great commission. That way you are putting corresponding actions "feet" to your faith.
Folks might find it difficult to hear you if you are not living as Jesus did.
You and your actions and words may be the only Bible people ever see and hear.
____________________
Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
|
|
|
Current time is 04:57 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
