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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 12:56 pm |
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Why does all mankind suffer for Adam's sin, why not just Adam? Why is punishment for sin handed down? Why should we all suffer for something just one person did? Kate mentioned in CHAT that she was asked this by a 12-year old. Kate suspects that this question actually comes from an adult unsympathetic to Catholicism. [Kate please clarify if I got this wrong]
I'm posting Kate's question in case somebody can help with this. In the meantime, here are my meager thoughts.
We could say, that's just the way things work, and it has been so since the beginning. Think of every-day repercussions for bad things that happen. Little things cause little effect, big things a big effect.
When a family member commits a crime, not only the criminal suffers but the impacts ripple through the family, the court system, every day life is altered, including the sadness for those around the criminal.
Adam's sin was so big, he couldn't have made up for it even if God punished him as much as possible. So God's justice "spreads" out the punishment.
To digress for a sec, when a kid asks a question, grown-ups must keep hyper reactions in check and work at responding to the basic question being asked. When we are asked where babies come from, how many grown-ups have launched into a detailed answer only to have the child respond in the end "yea, but where do babies really come from?" LOL!
Find out what the child is asking and what kind of answer he is looking for. The first rule is keep it as simple as possible, and answer the specific question that is asked.
1. fanciful answer
"you were found under a cabbage leaf". At this stage, children want a representational "answer", not necessarily a sensible one. Detailed mechanics and biology seem preposterous to a child in this stage.
2. spiritual answer
Sometimes kids deeply crave the "why" sooner than the hard facts. Here's where the explanation of babies described in the Trinitarian formula is effective. "We are made in the image of God and we procreate in His image as well. Just as the Holy Spirit proceeds from the love of the Father and the Son, this is why it takes two people to beget a third."
3. basic answer
babies come from Mommies
4. answer including the why
babies come from Mommies because of love
5 detailed answer
Biology and mechanics with moral explanations.
Back to the question, the child may be looking for a simple explanation of sin [not doing what God wants] and its related punishment [God says we have to make up for sin, and we can never make up for ANY sin all by ourselves], and why we owe our Creator obedience.
Kate, using the above formula of answers, maybe you can decipher what the 12-year old is really asking.
Adam and Eve ate the apple and there was no way to get it back. The "fruit", although it is likely a real occurrence, is a representation of the whole story.
Sinning takes away our happiness with God. The larger the sin, the wider the punishment.
God had to punish Adam for turning away, and Adam couldn't make up for what he did all by himself.
Adam had to pay for such a big sin as this. Because God is Adam's Creator, it is a very big sin to turn away from God. Rather than completely wiping out Adam, sending him to hell immediately or snuffing out Adam's existence, God instead promised mankind that he would send someone to make up for this sin - Punishing Adam could never possibly make up for this terrible thing he did anyway! So what God did was chase Adam out of the Garden and make him and the rest of us work by the sweat of our brow, gradually lose infused knowledge, become susceptible to death. These sufferings spread out over mankind, even as awful as it is, still was not enough. If we understand how big our punishment has been, we may start to understand how big Adam's sin really was and get an inkling of what Paradise must have been like.
Aquinas says: Adam's first sin passes upon himself and all the succeeding race; because he is the head of the human race and "by virtue of procreation human nature is transmitted and along with nature its infection." The powers of generation are, therefore, designated especially as "infected."
To get super-detailed, one could meditate on how big Adam's sin really is as Adam and Eve turned away from a God with whom they spoke and loved. Read the Bible and Aquinas' Summa Theologica about original sin, its cause and effects. :?
Kate is this any help at all?
Anybody else have better information?Last edited on Thu Jun 7th, 2007 01:19 pm by Tina in Ashburn
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 188 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 01:34 pm |
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Those who deny Original Sin see the Eden story as explaining why sin exists in God's perfect creation, but that's only half the Eden story. It doesn't just explain why sin exists, it also explains why it is necessary to have a Savior.
If Adam's sin just allowed sin to exist, that doesn't necessarily mean everybody sins. You could try really hard and avoid sin your whole life, couldn't you? There's nothing forcing you to sin. Such people, such extraordinary people, aren't in need of being "saved" because they're already perfect and deserve heaven.
But Paul's letters explain how we don't deserve heaven, because of the trespass of Adam: Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come (Romans 5:14). He also says in 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. In other words, we are under the curse of sin because of Adam; this curse is "Original Sin". It is not a sin that we committed, it is a state of un-grace imputed upon us by the first man who sinned.
Why did God do it this way? I can't really say for sure; that's for Him to determine. I would expect it is part of His grand divine plan. Augustine is credited with explaining (not creating, mind you) the doctrine of "Original Sin", and the Church considered it very strongly in context of Scripture and the traditions, beliefs, and practices of the Church... and accepted it. Tied to Original Sin is our belief in a regenerative baptism (also Scripturally based) which cleanses us of the un-grace we inherit through Adam.
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 02:10 pm |
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Tina,
You mentioned that an Kate thinks it is a question from an adult unsympathetic to Catholicism. As a Protestant, I always have believed in the doctrine of Original Sin. And most Protestants do. So if anything, it would moreso be a comment unsympathetic to Christianity. Afterall, Protestants insist that a person must be saved in order to enter Heaven. Saved from what? Sin! And Protestants believe that all of mankind inherits sin from our first ancestors, Adam and Eve.
Just my two cents. 
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Thu Jun 7th, 2007 02:58 pm |
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Darlene - and a penny for your thoughts. No, lots of pennies.
Kate can clarify, but in the confusion of the busy Chat last night, I gathered that this adult is running indirect interference with Kate's efforts to discover Catholicism. What Kate actually said last night is a vague memory... zzzzzzz. It got really late!
I didn't mean to give the impression that non-Catholics don't accept Original Sin. If that's how everybody's reading it though, your clarification is appreciated.
Isn't it true that Mormons don't officially believe in Original sin? ...Some venture to say that Mormons aren't Christians since they don't believe in the same common understanding of Christ but a lot of Mormons themselves would disagree with that.
The question revolves around why we supposedly are suffering for something we didn't personally do. No doubt my stab at such a hard question may come across as gobbledygook.
I really enjoy reading your postings BTW. Really good stuff.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Luke12:48
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 12th, 2007 02:42 am |
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Thank you for posting this and pointing me in the right direction. We started on this late in the chat and I hope it didn't keep you awake.'
Here is my belated clarification and thoughts---
The adult is not sympathetic to Catholicism or Christianity and usually falls somewhere between athiest, agnostic and the Jewish/Muslim concept of Christ as a gret teacher. It depends on which one he thinks will have the most impact as to which he pulls arguments from... When he fails at "running interference" with me he takes the same issues to the child--that is how I know where they are coming from. It's too much of a coincidence when the same questions are coming up with one and then the other a few days later.
The child is an extremely bright 12 year old with a definite need for logical, defendable answers. He is looking for detail and will have multiple follow up questions once a seed of doubt has been planted. He's too smart for his own good.
I have been reading and have pulled together from what is below from various sources including CCC, New Advent, Augustine and various quotes from different councils. If there are mistakes, they are mine as this is only my understanding so far.
Life in the garden of Eden and all the good that Adam and Eve had were gifts, not rights
God granted those gifts with a condition
Original Sin is not a an act (like personal sin) but a state of being
The personal sin of Adam and Even allowed evil to enter this state which is passed on
All descendants of Adam and Eve are born into this state (analogy -- Mr & Mrs Smith received an inheritance that enabled a very wealthy lifestyle but found they liked to gamble and spent all the money, their children are then born into a state of poverty that exists as a direct result of the poor choices made in using the inheritance)
Baptism "wipes the slate clean" and gives each individual a choice (like Adam and Eve had)
God allows sin and it's effects to achieve a greater good (which we may not always see)
Adam and Eve only had one chance --After Christ, baptism and then reconciliation gives us multiple opportunities hence a greater good from the sin of Adam which caused the need for Christ (this one is my thoughts entirely)
I think from this that I can reasonably explain that God does still balance justice and mercy and that humans are not punished for the sinful act of Adam BUT..(and there always is)
I have found a problem. The catechism says that for infants who die without being baptized, we can only hope there is a way of salvation and another source said that it is a matter of doctrine that unbaptized infants are denied the beatific vision. If there is no way for them to ever achieve this, then this still sounds like punishment to me... Where is the justice in this? Did I miss a point?
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 282 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Tue Jun 12th, 2007 09:18 am |
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Kate, Really good points there. Very clear.
I'll re-iterate that we suffer for Adam's sin because sin is so big one person can't make up for it. This reminds me that any turning away from God is big. If God were pure Justice, the most minute turning away would cause us instant annihilation. I'd like to remember this next time I take a pencil from work... hahaha. Anyway, I agree Kate that we suffer because of God's mercy, rather than getting annihilated as deserved.
"Adam and Eve had one chance" - I'm not sure that this is true. Or maybe I don't understand your statement. The difference between the fall of Man and the fall of the Angels is that theirs was an instant sin with no chance of changing. We are body and spirit, and this combination somehow slows down the process of choice and being able to change our mind. The Angels are pure spirit which makes everything they do instantaneous. Don't ask me what would have happened if Adam and Eve had stopped just before biting into the apple. Maybe you mean, that once the deed was done, there was repercussions with no chance of making the punishment go away?
As an aside, there has been discussion of why Adam also sinned. This is our example of failure of authority. Rather than listening to his helpmate, and blaming her, Adam still could have said "no". Adam failed in exerting his Authority over Eve. We suffer to this day for those that do not exert proper Authority when they should, and at the same time, we rebel against Authority all the time. This lesson should resonate for those who entered the Church because of the need for its Authority. Its a very old problem!
Do the unbaptized go to a happy place without the Beatific Vision or where? Why should souls get to heaven for free when Jesus paid so much to bring us baptism? You are reading different thoughts because the answer to those that die without baptism has never been defined. You stumbled across something very big which causes a lot of confusion. There is a line of thought promoted by a Fr Feeny who says nobody gets to heaven without actual baptism with water. He and his followers are NOT considered united brethren [Many who subscribe to this thought also believe we have no pope right now - very bad!]. Whereas traditionally the Church teaches a concept called "baptism of Desire" and "baptism of Blood". These are traditions that have not been defined by our Magisterium. Consider the argument that this is why Jesus' sacrifice is so important and one reason abortion is so bad. Baptism is really needed to overturn what we earned from Adam. However, how about when Jesus told the Good Thief "Today you will be with me in Paradise"? Or what about the Holy Innocents for whom we have a Feast Day? Baptism of desire means those who desired baptism but didn't get there, like someone getting hit by a truck on their way to getting baptized. Baptism of Blood are those that die a martyr's death for God but weren't actually baptized. Some argue that an unformed miscarried child or stillborn could desire baptism, or that the desire of the parents suffice for that baptism.
This has not been defined [did i say that already?]. There is too much we don't know and can't objectively predict. On one hand there's the objective need for Christ's redemption through baptism. On the other hand, there's the belief that God makes up for the lack of actual baptism when it fits His Justice and Mercy. Jesus HAS redeemed us, and now that payment can be applied as God deems.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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lia
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Quezon City, Philippines |
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| First Name: | lia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jul 20th, 2007 03:51 am |
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I don't know why God punished mankind for the sin of one man (ok, basically, 2 persons  ) ...I only know that it's true because if we didn't inherit Adam and Eve's sin then we wouldn't be on this earth but be born in heaven. For Adam and Eve's disobedience, God could just have destroyed them, right? But God doesn't create then just destroy it like a petty god.
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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Johnnie o
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| Joined: | Tue Jul 31st, 2007 |
| Location: | W. Hempstead L.I., New York USA |
| Posts: | 24 |
| First Name: | john | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic,altar boy(latin mass '62-4), 8yrs@ catholic school, Lapsed Ca. ... |
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Posted: Wed Aug 1st, 2007 02:49 pm |
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Hello Tina in ashburn,
I like your chutzah, I just finished reading your reply to catholicdan (well almost) (he still has to attend RCIA).
To understand the what happened in the Garden, we have to understand, human nature, 'Human appetite "
the Jewush thought is 'We as a 'collective conscience' all paticipated in the partaking of the fruit. The serpent represents something life threatening entering the Garden, he tempts Eve not because she is the weaker of the two, but because she has the most to gain, of theknowledge of the Tree of 'Good and bad' essentially the knowledge of 'A to Z' everything.
Adam sin is because he did not rebuke the serpent, laid back and watched and waited to see how this discussion pannesd out, the serpent in the hebrew speaks plurally as if speaking to the two.
without seeking God's help, on the matter, Adam partakes of the fruit, because of His love for her.
St Agustine writes, "all humans have the inclination to do good,"
however, even in our early childhood days, we grab our toys and say "MINE" unselfishnes and obedience are traits that needs to be taught.
God gave man One command, do not eat of the tree of Knowledge, in the midst of the garden, to prove his love.
A seventh day adventist will say, God was develpoing Adams character, Character is built upon experience.
God's dismissal of Adam and Eve form the garden is not a PUNISHMENT.
it is an act of MERCY! If adam and eve had eaten of the tree of Life, they would have both have been 'eternally damned.'
GOd always opts out for mercy.
Godbless,
Johnnie o
Last edited on Thu Aug 2nd, 2007 10:41 pm by Johnnie o
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All warfare is based on deception
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip. It doesn’t take much effort to use it, because others do the work for him. A few miss-directed words can des
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