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Robin
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| Joined: | Mon Mar 12th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 4 |
| First Name: | Robin | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Disciples of Christ, Non-denominational Christian, awaiting entry into the Catholic ... |
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 10:50 am |
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My 16 year old daughter attends a nondenominational Christian school (this is her last year). Her Theology teacher, who is very anti-Catholic, told the class that the Catholic Church teaches that all men will be saved. He read some quotes from Vatican II written by Pope John Paul II (before he was Pope obviously). I've tried to do an internet search on this and all I could come up with is Traditionalist sites saying basically the same thing as her teacher and much worse.
Can anyone explain this to me or point me to some good online references. She doesn't know how to respond to him.
Thank you.
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 12:14 pm |
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I would say that properly understood the churches stance is that those who by no fault of their own do not know Christ and His Church can be saved. Not that they definitely will be saved. David sent me a great link for an artical from the Vatican that really helped me understand how the church views this subject in a way that I found to be wonderful. Please read it. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
I get a little uneasy myself at these teachings in question and how they are worded and misrepresented. I don't like the sections of the catechism that describe how Jews and Muslims pretty much worship the same God. I really think there is a big difference between the Moslem God and our God even if they honor the same old testament books. In fact they have no view of the trinity. How can their god be the same as ours?
Anyway, properly understood I like these teachings (if I properly understand them). We have hope. We don't condemn others or say unless they magically discover Christ in the middle of some place there are no churches or decent opportunities to learn of Christ that they are going to hell. This is refreshing and I think logical if one believes in a loving and fair God.
I also think these teachings are there to break down walls and build up ecumenical dialogue, and have probably had some success in doing so. I would never want to sacrifice truth in order to make people feel better, but I think the church is walking a fine line. The fact is clear that the church believes that she is the place where the true God is most fully known. That one who realizes this must come along with her. That we must evangelize. That there is only one true religion and it is ours.
But rather than being combative or arogant about it, we look for ways to build what we have in common with others and reach out to them. Of course I worry about how effective that will be if they just get the impression we think that they are saved anyway. I wonder if these teachings could be more clear because so many people misunderstand them and seem to think we think everybody will be saved, when we still clearly teach on mortal sin and hell even for our own members who do not walk the path of virtue. We still affirm that the church and Jesus are necessary for salvation and that anyone saved will be saved through Jesus and not through some other religion. It is only what these religions have in common with us that we affirm as true and see as shadows pointing them to the one true God and hoping that somehow God is honoring them as they seacrch but are not fully enlightened.
I worry that teachings like this might make some slack in evangelization. As a baptist we emphasized evangelization because we thought only those with a conversion experience like ours woould go to heaven. It is refreshing now that I can believe God's mercy extends beyond that, but still, since the only way to know for sure our loved ones are going to be saved is if they embrace Christ and the Church I think we still need to feel a certain desire to share our faith intentionally whether by actions or words.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5453 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 12:27 pm |
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Robin wrote: My 16 year old daughter attends a nondenominational Christian school (this is her last year). Her Theology teacher, who is very anti-Catholic, told the class that the Catholic Church teaches that all men will be saved.
It is very hard to prove a negative, but let's give it a try.
First, let's look at the Catholics United for the Faith. Their Faith Facts are very scholarly references to the teachings of the Church, faithful to the Magisterium and well researched. Here are a few titles:
Persevering to the End: The Biblical Reality of Mortal Sin
Without the Church there is No Salvation
Hell: The Self-Exclusion From God
Next, we'll look to Catholic Answers, which publishes tracts on a variety of topics:
Assurance of Salvation
Grace: What It Is and What It Does
Mortal Sin
Reward and Merit
Salvation Outside the Church
The Hell There Is!
The reason the misconception arose is that after Vatican II, the Church said plainly that salvation is available to all; that salvation is possible without the Church, and that there is a possibility (however remote) that hell is empty. If you twist those words, you can end up with almost any conclusion.
There is also a possibility that tomorrow it will not rain anywhere on earth. It's not going to happen, but it is theoretically possible. Well, since we don't know the way God works or how God offers salvation outside the Church, we cannot say with absolute certainty that anyone has ever been condemned to hell. But given the words of Jesus and the teachings of the Church on mortal sin, it is certainly extremely likely that hell is full!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 01:14 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: The reason the misconception arose is that after Vatican II, the Church said plainly that salvation is available to all; that salvation is possible without the Church,
I am not trying to be disrespectful but isn't there a difference between saying that salvation is possible without the church and saying it is possible for those outside the church physically. Because I do not think it is accurate to say it is possible to be saved without the church. Even those who are saved outside of us, we believe are mystically united to us invisibly. I thought that the Church is a necessity for anyone to be saved because the truth flows through us and the sacraments, so even those saved without being physically joined to us, are still saved through the church. I think maybe if I take your statement in its context that I can tell that you probably did intend to mean 'without directly being in the church' but I wanted to ask anyway.
Again, I see myself in no position to challenge or question you since you are the moderator and know so much more than I do. So please pardon me if I am being rude or if I am wrong about this.
Brian
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5453 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Mar 28th, 2007 01:21 pm |
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brian wrote: cajunrick wrote: The reason the misconception arose is that after Vatican II, the Church said plainly that salvation is available to all; that salvation is possible without the Church,
I am not trying to be disrespectful but isn't there a difference between saying that salvation is possible without the church and saying it is possible for those outside the church physically. Because I do not think it is accurate to say it is possible to be saved without the church.
You're right, Brian, my choice of words was poor. It is possible for those who are not members of the Church to be saved, but all salvation comes through the Church. Even those who are not members of the Church are dependent on the Church for the free gift of salvation, as the Church is the mechanism Jesus established to dispense salvation to the world.
Thanks for catching my error.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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