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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 803 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 04:28 am |
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I think that searching for truth is difficult. It is hard to be fair and look for what is true regarldess of our precvious feelings or opinions. It is hard to look at both sides and not just try to find support of what you already want to believe.
I also think it is difficult in determiing what God is "doing" in your life and how it supports our decisions to convert. Meaning, I would like to think that we are ultimately Catholic because it is true. Because one way or another we responded to grace and the Holy Spirit. There are things that have happened in my life since pursuing Catholicicms (and even after) that I really see as strong affirmations that I am on the right track. Wonderful situations lining up, things falling into place, meeting the right person at the right time, wonderful peace in my soul. There are things that I will always believe God allowed me to experiene to help me become Catholic.
Still, I knew all along somwhere in my heart I think that I could not base my decision to make a lifelong commitment of feelings, or events or whatever. I was given advice not to be too quick to interporest such things. However, some of it continued in ways that really convinced me that this religion really works. That the communion of saints is real etc. Anyway, my point is that I knew experience was only part of the equation. That ultimately I needed to pray and open my heart and sek truth. That I had to go where I saw truth leading.
Still, I truly believe that if we see truth leading and are convicted we must follow even if life does not seem to affirm our decisions. Even if we die for our newfound faith. Still, I think that we really should prayerfully and patiently look at what happens in life and try to figure out through prayer and guidance where we see God in it all.
Now to my problem...it seems that people can always find evidence that God is leading them somewhere. Would he lead people in conflicting places. How could He lead people to what is not true? What of the story David shared of the person who converted to Catholicism but is now gone back to Adventism. He claism that through long decades of prayer from family and events that were unmistakably seen as the Holy Spirit guiding him that God has affirmed his decision not to be Catholic. I see protestants all the time who are good God seeking people who seem to have 'confirmations' that they belong to the right church for them and it is impossible ot argue. So what do I make of this? I still say we must make something of what happens to us, but I also see that we can be mislead if we only follow hunches or events that seem to confirm things. Is it possible that sometimes God is leading us, and other times it is us seeing what we want to see and creating evidence, or sometimes it is forces of darkness sort of mimicking God? I still think at least some if the time we can, if we are patient and discerning figure out how truth and the events of our life are working together, but it seems we must be extremely cautious in this.
thoughts?
Brian
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 185 |
| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 08:40 am |
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brian wrote: I also think it is difficult in determiing what God is "doing" in your life and how it supports our decisions to convert. Meaning, I would like to think that we are ultimately Catholic because it is true. Because one way or another we responded to grace and the Holy Spirit. There are things that have happened in my life since pursuing Catholicicms (and even after) that I really see as strong affirmations that I am on the right track. Wonderful situations lining up, things falling into place, meeting the right person at the right time, wonderful peace in my soul. There are things that I will always believe God allowed me to experiene to help me become Catholic.
Still, I knew all along somwhere in my heart I think that I could not base my decision to make a lifelong commitment of feelings, or events or whatever. I was given advice not to be too quick to interporest such things. However, some of it continued in ways that really convinced me that this religion really works. That the communion of saints is real etc. Anyway, my point is that I knew experience was only part of the equation. That ultimately I needed to pray and open my heart and sek truth. That I had to go where I saw truth leading.
Now to my problem...it seems that people can always find evidence that God is leading them somewhere. Would he lead people in conflicting places. How could He lead people to what is not true? What of the story David shared of the person who converted to Catholicism but is now gone back to Adventism. He claism that through long decades of prayer from family and events that were unmistakably seen as the Holy Spirit guiding him that God has affirmed his decision not to be Catholic. I see protestants all the time who are good God seeking people who seem to have 'confirmations' that they belong to the right church for them and it is impossible ot argue. So what do I make of this? I still say we must make something of what happens to us, but I also see that we can be mislead if we only follow hunches or events that seem to confirm things. Is it possible that sometimes God is leading us, and other times it is us seeing what we want to see and creating evidence, or sometimes it is forces of darkness sort of mimicking God? I still think at least some if the time we can, if we are patient and discerning figure out how truth and the events of our life are working together, but it seems we must be extremely cautious in this.
It is difficult for almost any Christian of a particular denomination to accept a fellow Christian change denominations. As a Catholic, I would be downright confused by another Catholic rejecting the Catholic faith and becoming a Baptist, Seventh-Day Adventist, etc. The primary reason is because (more or less) we all have the same Scripture, and one denomination interprets it as saying "baptism is a sacrament, a regenerative birth in the Holy Spirit that confers grace" and another as saying "baptism is just a symbol".
It's even harder to accept a conversion of faith entirely, from Catholicism to Judaism or Islam or Buddhism, because it's not a matter of interpretation of Scripture, but complete (or partial) rejection of it. The problem is, if you doubt some of Scripture's reliability, why do you accept the rest of it? Because some of it agrees with your personal expectations and some of it doesn't, so you go with what you prefer to believe? I don't know, I've never switched faiths; I've had to ask myself if I really believe the Catholic faith is the true faith, and after prayer discernment I believe it is.
I do not agree with this statement made by "john" on Dr. Francis Beckwith's blog: In addition the plurality of Protestant Denominations more closely resembles how Christ and the Apostles believed how conflict over matters of Doctrine of faith should be handled. They should be handled peacefully and the opposing groups should allow the other to separate and practice their own faith with out any group attempting to impose their doctrine by force on another group. The letters of Paul and James and Peter and John clearly show a strong effort to maintain orthodoxy among the various churches set up in the first few decades of Christianity. Is there more than one Truth? If Church A has the Truth and Church B leaves it, is it not imperative for Church A to inform Church B of their error? Or should there be numerous uncontested heresies? Who cares if Jesus is really God or not, so long as we're "practicing our own faith". The reason is, people will start to question what Christianity actually is, if you can hold any of 100,000 differing opinions, acceptable by those in your specific Church.
Matthew 12:25-26 talks about a "kingdom divided against itself". I do not think Jesus wants division in the kingdom of heaven (on earth), the Church. But he knew it would come about. Which is why he prayed for the unity of Christians in John 17:11. I do not think Jesus leads people into multiple "truths". As one who believes the Catholic faith is the genuine, apostolic, preserved faith, I would have to say that a person who feels "called" into another denomination is not responding entirely to the message God is sending them, or is injecting his own biases into the equation, or is not listening to God, or (sad to say) is not receiving the message from God but rather the Devil. I don't know which it is, really. But if God waited some 1500 years to correct the error of the second generation of Christians who believed the Lord's Supper was truly the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, while letting them retain their Apostolic Succession and giving them the wisdom to defeat the numerous heresies that arose in the Church, I am at a complete and utter loss for words. I submit to the authority in teaching and interpretation of the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, because otherwise, I'll be the Ethiopian Eunuch reading Scripture and deciding for myself of whom Isaiah speaks, how efficacious baptism is, if Jesus really is God, etc.
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 375 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 12:05 pm |
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I think, a lot of times, people make their own decisions and then attribute it to God. If they feel good about the decision they wre making, especially if it's a decision that brings them happiness, they assume God is leading them.
I have a very good friend who once asked me (while I was tormented by what the cathlic church teaches, trying to figure out if it were true)...anyway, she asked me, "How can you belong to a religion that you're so uncomfortable with?", or something like that.
And, I know she was sincere, but my immediate thought was that if I only accepted what I was comfortable with, I would belong to the church of me. I didn't want to convince myself that God was leading me into my own wrong decisions. This idea was actually a big factor in my conversion struggle.
God bless,
Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Sun May 13th, 2007 03:57 pm |
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It is certainly true that, given the diversity of opinion on the topic of truth, a lot of people must be deceived. The question posed by Brian seems to be: In the realm of religion, is there a way to tell what is true from what is not true? This is the question that started my own intellectual trek some five decades ago. I researched it for several years, primarily in Thomistic philosophy and theology (the only tradition I could find that could answer the relativistic prattle I was otherwise surrounded with), before I was able to answer with an unequivocal Yes. This led directly to my becoming Catholic.
Fortunately for us today, Fr. Thomas Dubay, well known for his numerous series on EWTN, has written a couple of books that address the problem from different angles. One is Faith and Certitude. The other is Authenticity: A Biblical Theology of Discernment.
I read both these books several years ago and found them, together, exhaustive in their treatment of human fallacy and self-deception and clearly defining in their positive treatment of the actual attainment of the truth. Dubay’s hard hitting, no-nonsense approach to intellectual honesty may knock some people’s socks off, but if you’re game, both books can be very rewarding.
David
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
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| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 02:55 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
Fortunately for us today, Fr. Thomas Dubay, well known for his numerous series on EWTN, has written a couple of books that address the problem from different angles. One is Faith and Certitude. The other is Authenticity: A Biblical Theology of Discernment.
I read both these books several years ago and found them, together, exhaustive in their treatment of human fallacy and self-deception and clearly defining in their positive treatment of the actual attainment of the truth. Dubay’s hard hitting, no-nonsense approach to intellectual honesty may knock some people’s socks off, but if you’re game, both books can be very rewarding.
David
David, do you think these books are advantageous for the Evangelical Protestant? I am struggling with the concept of truth, and so many perceptions of what many would deem it to be. "I've found the truth in this or that" proclaim the voices of the day. Narrow it down to the Christian church, and this claim of knowing the truth, loving the truth, living for the truth, manifests itself in various and diverse ways.
Yes, I realize the Catholic Church says that their separated brethren have discovered the truth in Jesus Christ, but not in its entirety. (my wording) The Catholic Church says that she possesses the "fullness of the truth." Yet, there seems to be such a conglomeration within that place where the fullness of truth claims to reside, that one can become confused. Should not truth, if it indeed is truth, make itself clearly and visibly known? In my thinking, wherever truth resides, that should be the place where all those possessing error, living in denial, lying to themselves or others, and disregarding and outright demoralizing truth with their lives should be exposed by the light. "For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." John 3:20
Yet, conversely, should not those who love the truth which is in Jesus Christ, willingly and without hesitation live for and defend truth? And would that not be obvious in the sight of all? "But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God." John 3:21 The Early Church lived and loved the truth in such a manner that this love permeated their being, their thoughts, actions, all that they embodied. This power of embracing the truth was so efficacious that Ananias and Sapphira dropped dead before Peter, because they lied to the Holy Spirit. So many were being healed that the faith of those who witnessed the workings of the apostles believed that they could be healed by the mere shadow of Peter. Where is that kind of power and truth in action seen by all working in the body of Christ today? Wherever it is, I want to be there. But I don't see it anywhere and this is very discouraging to me.
When one says, I am part of where the fullness of truth resides, yet when looking there, the claim is lacking in the actual carrying out and living that claim, one (such as myself) begins to wonder.
Maybe I have not even made myself very clear and perhaps I haven't accomplished that in my ramblings above. This stuggle for me is so very intense that it consumes most of my waking, and yes sleeping hours, as well.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 05:34 pm |
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I tend to agree with what Truthseeker/Laura said above, but we also do not know (and cannot judge) where anyone is on their personal journey to God. Maybe he did call someone back to someplace else because they had unfinished business there. They needed to touch someone's heart before they moved on, or give witness or support in some other way. Maybe were not spiritually or emotionally ready for the full truth the Catholic faith has to offer, and dealing with all that may come with it.
{shrug} I dunno, we only see the surface, God sees the heart
Ali
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon May 14th, 2007 11:29 pm |
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Darlene wrote:David, do you think these books are advantageous for the Evangelical Protestant?
I would divide the question differently. Dubay’s books are kind of like philosophy, psychology and theology all rolled into one as he provides the reader with what is really a form of spiritual direction. So the person who would find these books profitable is most likely someone in your position, Darlene, where the will is confused by conflicting signals from the intellect. That person could be of any faith tradition. The call has to do with discernment and growth in living the truth, not with persuasion or abstract thinking.
What Fr. Dubay does first is show the reader everything that doesn’t work and the fallacies on which those approaches are based. Then he takes the bible and, passage by passage, presents the traditional Catholic understanding of certainty, of supernatural faith and of the integral role of the will in providing direction to a person’s life through charity.
Here are a few sample lines from the book Authenticity:
God is not popular. Not the real God. He has never been popular, and he is not popular today. One who is caught up in the enthusiasm of thoroughgoing conversion is forever astonished and crushed that the majority of men and women neither acclaim the undiluted gospel nor seem to make extraordinary efforts to live it. They who proclaim the word either in speech or in print are forever surprised when many remain indifferent to the message or reject it outright. But the surprise is mistaken.
Part of the message itself is that the message will not be favorably received by the majority. It is a hard road and a narrow gate that lead to life, and only a few find it (Mt 7:13–14). From Amos 5:15, where the remnant idea occurs for the first time in Scripture, through to Matthew 22:14, where we read that the elect are few, we are repeatedly reminded that the faithful will be a little flock. It is true that the gospel will be proclaimed in the whole world, that the mustard seed is to grow into a large tree, but the message will always be at odds with the prevailing spirit of the world. Jesus does not speak on an earthly plane (Jn 3:31), and so many leave him. Paul proclaims a wisdom not of this age because the wisdom of the world he considers absurdity with God (1 Cor 2:6; 3:19). The genuine disciples are the salt of the earth (Mt 5:13; Lk 14:34–35), and image that likewise suggests both smallness and great diversity from the generality. The authentic word is wheat mingled with the straw of error, and the prophet who proclaims it is like a burning fire and a hammer shattering rocks (Jer 23:28–29).
We ought not to be surprised that the world hates the faithful disciples. Yet strangely enough we are surprised. We expect the Church’s teaching to be acceptable to the majority. We tend not to hear the many times the New Testament proclaims the world’s hatred for the authentic proclamation and for those who announce it. The very first of the New Testament canonical writings refers to the persecution of the faith as being widespread and much to be expected (1 Th 2:14–16; 3:3–4). Jesus himself had said that his followers would be blessed when men hate and ostracize and insult them (Lk 6:22). Even members of one’s own family will reject, persecute and kill the faithful person: “All will hate you because of me” (Lk 21:16–17). John’s Gospel is every bit as explicit: The world hates the disciples because it has hated Jesus before them, for neither he nor they belong to the world and what it stands for (Jn 15:18–19; 17:14–16). – pp. 167–168
Later in his work (pp. 184ff), Dubay discloses the cause of this resistance: personal sin, which as he shows amply from the bible and the writings of the saints, darkens the mind and makes it literally impossible for a person to accept the truth. This is why, as you have cited, “everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.”
But notice that, in Dubay’s argument, it is sin that comes first, not intellectual darkness. This is why your question, “Would that not be obvious in the sight of all?” misses the mark: it is not obvious to all. You speak of the light being “clearly seen,” not understanding that only the one who comes to the light sees clearly. The rest stand too far away to make out anything. This is precisely why you “don’t see [the power and truth] anywhere.” These people have not opened their hearts to God, but have instead rejected both the power and the truth, preferring weakness and darkness.
I agree with you that there are many Catholics who do not live up to their name. They honor God with their lips, as the prophet says (Isaiah 29:13; Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6), but their hearts are far from him. As you can see from the bible, this is nothing new. Anyway, you can also see why I have said that Dubay’s books are capable of “knocking some people’s socks off.”
David
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