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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 08:14 pm |
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When it says all things are in, through, from, for God..and in Him we move and have our being...
well how do i best understand this while avoiding pantheism. is it more accurate to say that God fills all things, or that He is in all things, or that all things are in Him.
I do not want to ge to complext but what exactly is the easiest way to see this. Whos is God. I was thinknig that it is important to distunguish that He is in or filled by all things, and we are moving 'in Him' as long as we do not worship the created thnigs or see them as a part of God Himself. Moreso that they reveal and are full of His glory. So I was thinknig that He is in all things, but also that all things are in Him. That He is invisible and entirely mystery, but so large that all the universe and more contains Him. So right now we are somehow looking at God only it is not our eyes that can see Him but the faith that we know He is there. Not to worship nature, but to look out in all that we see and realize that God gfills it, that we are constantly communing with him and that what we are looking at is God somehow, or is where God is (to some extent) rather.
Is there a better way to think of this?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 09:14 pm |
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brian wrote: Is there a better way to think of this?
I can't think of a better way than the way it was expressed by St. Francis of Assisi in "The Canticle of Brother Sun":
Most High, Omnipotent, Good Lord, Thine be the praises, the glory, and the honor and every blessing (cf. Apoc. 4:9.11).
To Thee alone, Most High, do they belong and no man is worthy to mention Thee.
May Thou be praised, my Lord, with all Thy creatures (cf. Tob. 8:7), especially mister brother sun, of whom is the day, and Thou enlightens us through him.
And he is beautiful and radiant with a great splendor, of Thee, Most High, does he convey the meaning
May Thou be praised, my Lord, for sister moon and the stars (cf. Ps. 148:3), in heaven Thou has made them clear and precious and beautiful
May Thou be praised, my Lord, for brother wind, and for the air and the cloudy and the clear weather and every weather (cf. Dan 3:64-65), through which to all Thy creatures Thou gives sustenance (cf. Ps. 103:13-14)
May Thou be praised, my Lord, for sister water, who is very useful and humble and precious and chaste
May Thou be praised, my lord, for brother fire (cf. Dan 3:66), through whom Thou illumines the night, and he is handsome and jocund and robust and strong
May Thou be praised, my Lord, for our sister, mother earth, (cf. Dan 3:74) who sustains us and governs, and produces various fruits with colored flowers and green plants (cf. Ps 103:13-14)
May Thou be praised, my Lord, for those who forgive for the sake of Thy love (cf. Mt 6:12), and endure infirmity and tribulation
Blessed those who endure them in peace (cf. Mt 5:10), because by Thee, Most High, will they be crowned
May Thou be praised, my Lord, for our sister, bodily death, whom no man living can escape
Woe to those, who die in mortal sin: blessed those whom she will find in Thy most holy desires, because the second death will do them no evil (cf. Apoc 2:11; 20:6)
Praise and bless my Lord (cf. Dan 3:85), and give Him thanks and serve Him with great humility!
I found several translations of this canticle, but I decided to go with a Franciscan web site that also includes many of St. Francis's other writings. You can find it on Wikipedia and on several other web sites as well.
As we pray in the mass at the conclusion of the Eucharistic prayer, "Through him (Jesus), with him and in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, forever and ever." And we answer with what's called the Great Amen.
Pantheism, according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is the view that "God is everything and everything is God … the world is either identical with God or in some way a self-expression of his nature". This is partly correct, but fails by not including that which is not. To say that God is equal to the sum of creation leaves out the reality that God is also that which is not created. If we use a bucket to indicate the totality of creation, we must also realize that God's existance is greater than the bucket.
The Catechism tells us in paragraph 279:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Holy Scripture begins with these solemn words. The profession of faith takes them up when it confesses that God the Father almighty is "Creator of heaven and earth" (Apostles' Creed), "of all that is, seen and unseen" (Nicene Creed).
All that is, seen or unseen, is of God. But where pantheism fails is that it does not accept that God is not the sum of creation; God is greater than creation.
The Catechism takes pantheism on directly in paragraph 285:
Since the beginning the Christian faith has been challenged by responses to the question of origins that differ from its own. Ancient religions and cultures produced many myths concerning origins. Some philosophers have said that everything is God, that the world is God, or that the development of the world is the development of God (Pantheism). Others have said that the world is a necessary emanation arising from God and returning to him. Still others have affirmed the existence of two eternal principles, Good and Evil, Light and Darkness, locked, in permanent conflict (Dualism, Manichaeism). According to some of these conceptions, the world (at least the physical world) is evil, the product of a fall, and is thus to be rejected or left behind (Gnosticism). Some admit that the world was made by God, but as by a watch-maker who, once he has made a watch, abandons it to itself (Deism). Finally, others reject any transcendent origin for the world, but see it as merely the interplay of matter that has always existed (Materialism). All these attempts bear witness to the permanence and universality of the question of origins. This inquiry is distinctively human.
(Bold emphasis added).
All things are part of God, in that all creation exists within the creative aspect of Yahweh, God the Father. However, God is not the sum of creation but the Creator. The Catechism expresses this Truth in paragraph 300:
God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens." Indeed, God's "greatness is unsearchable". But because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures' inmost being: "In him we live and move and have our being." In the words of St. Augustine, God is "higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self."
Further, creation is a continuous act; each moment of time is a brand new creation, and God must continually create. God would not need to destroy the world. If God simply stopped creating, all existence would cease. It wouldn't stop; it would have never been. This is expressed in the Catechism in paragraph 320:
God created the universe and keeps it in existence by his Word, the Son "upholding the universe by his word of power" (Heb 1:3), and by his Creator Spirit, the giver of life.
Does that make sense?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Juan
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| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Sat Apr 28th, 2007 09:37 pm |
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Pantheism:
Belief that God equates to the universe, and vice versa.
http://www.csa.com/hottopics/marc/gloss.php
The belief that God and the Universe are identical.*
http://www.stsams.org/dictionary.html
As I understand Pantheism, this would limit God to a finite being. God would only grow or shrink with the universe.
That is not what Scripture means when it says:
Acts Of Apostles 17
28 For in him we live, and move, and are; as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring.
This should be clear when Scripture says that everything was created by Him:
John 1
3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
So, God existed before the universe and created the universe and everything that was created was created by Him.
well how do i best understand this while avoiding pantheism. is it more accurate to say that God fills all things, or that He is in all things, or that all things are in Him.
Time and space are also God's creatures. God transcends all His creatures.
Let us change the subject for a second. Let us consider the angels.
Have you ever heard the question, how many angels on the head of a pin? The answer is "an infinite number". Why? Because angels take up no space. They are spiritual beings.
God is also on the head of that pin. And yet, that pin and everything else in the universe is contained in God with room to spare.
So, God is not us and we are not God but God is in us and we are in God. It is a great mystery.
300 God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens." Indeed, God's "greatness is unsearchable". But because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures' inmost being: "In him we live and move and have our being." In the words of St. Augustine, God is "higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self".
Sincerely,
Juan
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