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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 02:36 pm |
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My RCIA instructor on and off (and i missed her full explanation or how serious she is) has reffered to the Holy Spirit as "she." We will see what "she" leads us to. I am aware that the greek word for Holy Spirit is feminine. I am aware that God is not really man or woman. But I also believe he for whatever reasons chose to use male imagery (though sometimes female) but only male pronouns and descriptions. And Jesus himself in his later prayers in John keeps saying he will send the Holy Spirit by saying I will send "him" to you. Therfore, is it a problem that my instructor uses this terminology to refer to the Holy Spirit? Should I ask her if she is serious or mostly in jest or if she really believes it and then seek any further steps if she really believes it and will continue to teach it? Is my understanding correct that though not man or woman one can only use male pronouns to refer to the Holy Spirit?
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 3rd, 2007 04:35 pm |
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Is my understanding correct that though not man or woman one can only use male pronouns to refer to the Holy Spirit?
Yes. If, as scripture says, the Holy Spirit overshadowing the Virgin Mary resulted in the conception of Jesus Christ, you can be sure that the Holy Spirit is not a “she.” Furthermore, in both Hebrew and Latin, the word “spirit” is masculine. Greek is the odd — er, man — out.
David
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Truthseeker
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| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 367 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 05:56 pm |
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And I would add that if God is truly "one", then, if He is Father and Son, how can the Holy Spirit be a different "gender"?
Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 07:22 pm |
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brian wrote: My RCIA instructor on and off (and i missed her full explanation or how serious she is) has reffered to the Holy Spirit as "she."
This is not uncommon, but it is inaccurate. Using "he" would be equally inaccurate.
God transcends gender. God is neither masculine or feminine, and both at the same time. To ascribe any gender to God is to place a limit on that which is limitless.
God our Creator was presented to us by Jesus as Father. In a Jewish household, the Father was the center of power. The Father owned the property, was responsible for education, guided his children, and commanded his wife. The Person of the Trinity we call the Father is in that role for us, because of the unique creative power. Jesus used the image of fatherhood as he used so many other images, to aid in our human understanding. He was helping us to understand God, not giving us a gender-based description.
From the Catechism:
239 By calling God "Father", the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God's parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God's immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard: no one is father as God is Father.
Jesus, God our Savior, is masculine in his humanity, but still without gender in his Divinity. We use a masculine pronoun to recognize the gender of his Incarnate Body.
God the Holy Spirit is the nurturer. The Spirit fills us with God's grace and travels with us on our road to salvation. In that nurturing, the Spirit fills the feminine role of the Godhead. Of course, that does not give gender to God. But calling the Holy Spirit "she" is no more or less accurate than calling the Holy Spirit "he". Neither is correct.
In language, we to use the masculine to indicate mixed gender or unknown gender; we write "Dear Sir" when we don't know who will be opening a letter. A male graduate of a university is an alumnus; a female graduate is an alumna. The plurals are alumni and alumnae, respectively, but we always use "alumni" (the masculine) to indicate the graduates of a co-educational institution. In the Nicene Creed we say, "for us men and for our salvation..." to indicate not only the males but the females as well. The Catechism uses male pronouns to refer to all three Persons of the Trinity.
So if we are going to use a pronoun to refer to God, linguistics tells us to use the masculine. Jesus used the masculine imagery to indicate the Creator whom he called Father, so many feel they should use the feminine to represent the Holy Spirit to "balance the scales" of complementarity. This has been true primarily since the beginning of the women's movement in the 1960's.
But the fact is that neither "he" nor "she" are accurate representations of God. Theologically either is just as correct as the other, and just as inadequate; linguistically, we should use the masculine.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 11:19 am |
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God's peace. In our present feminist age, use of the male inclusive pronoun is under attack from every direction. It is not possible to get a book published today if you write with correct grammar, as: "Would everyone please take his seat?" That isn't politically correct. You have to bastardize the language by having a plural possessive pronoun refer to a singular: "Would everyone please take their seats?"
I personally find this very frustrating and take every opportunity to acquaint my students with proper English when I speak. I view this attack on the language as an attack on the Faith, since it neutralizes both the created unity of the human species and the divinely-instituted headship of the male, not to speak of posing a doubt as to whether a male Christ can substitute for a female sinner! Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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Juan
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 03:26 pm |
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You are correct. She is wrong.
2672 The Holy Spirit, whose anointing permeates our whole being, is the interior Master of Christian prayer. He is the artisan of the living tradition of prayer. To be sure, there are as many paths of prayer as there are persons who pray, but it is the same Spirit acting in all and with all. It is in the communion of the Holy Spirit that Christian prayer is prayer in the Church.
John 14:26: But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
The Catholic Church refers to the Holy Spirit as He and she has no right to teach her own agenda in the RCIA.
You might want to speak to her privately, if she doesn't want to stop then speak to the Priest.
Sincerely,
Juan
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 799 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 05:08 pm |
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Thanks Rick. I was aware of these ideas, but I was thinking that it may be considered more "wrong" to call the Holy Spirit "she" because regardless of whether He/She transcends sex and is neither, the church has always referred to Him as thus and so did Jesus. So I would think that though both are inaccurate, using she is more dangerous and goes outside of what God himself has revealed that we can address him as. There are references to God's maternal nature in old and new testament, but I would not feel comfortable calling the Father the Mother or saying "Our Mother."
I did read something saying that there have been people as early as St. John Chrystosm who pointed out the feminine images of God and that others throughout History have done the same, but I think to act on this imagery and call God she is taking it too far and that it is ok to "wrongly" refer to God as 'He' because that is how He chose to reveal Himself to make things easier, so long as we do not actually believe that God is male or males are superior to females.
I also think that it is important to know that God is capable of motherly care and I wonder if sometimes people turn to Mary every time they seek this comfort not realizing that God also can provide that intimate nurturing like a mother hen/eagle.
But I also thank God for the gift of our mother Mary and think He uses her to provide us that maternal picture and sense of being cared for in a maternal way because many of us could use that picture and love that He has gifted her to provide for us that she graciously gives to us. He knew this would be good for us to seek her intercession and comfort and He knew that she is definitely 'woman' and it is easy to keep this identity in mind. He really has thought of everything.
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