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DaQuodJubes
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 31st, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 16 |
| First Name: | Dan | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Former Lutheran |
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Posted: Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 11:15 pm |
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I was just noticing that I registered on this forum five months ago. Hard to believe. That means my conversion story has been a long time coming, and I have posted it here. It's in four parts on my blog, but I think I've made it easy enough to get through the story easily. Just follow the links.
Dan
____________________
http://www.beatvsvir.blogspot.com
God in His omnipotence could not give more,
in His wisdom He knew not how to give more,
in His riches He had not more to give,
than the Eucharist. - St. Augustine
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left coast mystic
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| Joined: | Sat May 10th, 2008 |
| Location: | La Honda, California USA |
| Posts: | 131 |
| First Name: | Marcee | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nondenominational charismatic, Presbyterian, long-time lover of the RCC |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 12:24 am |
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Dan -
That's quite a story; seems to me it deserves to be in the next "Surprised by the Truth" books (gosh, I sure hope they keep putting out new ones!).
I'm not sure when you quit your positions, but I pray that God leads you into the fulness of which your pastorate was only a taste.
Marcee
____________________
Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and confidence shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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kersca
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| Joined: | Fri May 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 60 |
| First Name: | Adam | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 01:19 am |
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I read your conversion story and found it very interesting. As a L.C.M.S. layperson I was never as theological minded as you were. The whole conspicuence difference was something I never even knew about L.C.M.S. My parents and brother switched from L.C.M.S. to Wisconsin synod years back. They felt L.C.M.S. was too liberal in their theology. Too bad they did not look further. Who knows though. After myself and two sisters crossed the tiber they make the sign of the cross before mealtime prayers and serve fish on Fridays for us. Someday...
Adam
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kersca
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| Joined: | Fri May 23rd, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 60 |
| First Name: | Adam | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 01:20 am |
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| Oh yea... Concordia Ann Arbor Grad... You?
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 262 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 02:42 am |
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| Thank you for your witness to the truth. I read all four sections. Virtually every protestant I discuss the catholic faith with believes the church teaches that salvation is based upon our own works, done by our own motivation. I refer them to the Councils of Orange (529 AD) and Trent (1520s). I was surprised that the lack of authority in LCMS did not seem to be a big issue with you given your personal experience. I got the view LCMS churches are run like a localized democracy. God bless you.
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 208 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 03:41 pm |
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Thanks for sharing your story with us, Dan. I love all the conversion stories, but I am especially moved by those who were pastors in other churches.
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DaQuodJubes
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| Joined: | Thu Jan 31st, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Dan | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Former Lutheran |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 06:32 pm |
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Marcee, what a nice thing for you to say!
Adam, I read your story as well. My, what a rough go you have had at it. It is interesting for me to compare how a Lutheran may struggle with addiction and how a Catholic may. I'll keep you in my prayers. With regard to family members, I bet most of us have close relatives who are not Catholic. We may (and should) pray for them, and express our faith to them, but it's the Holy Spirit's job to convert them, and that may not happen until the life of the world to come. And yep, I'm a CCAA grad. Is that significant?
Ted, While Authority was not the main issue, it was an issue, particularly when it came to leaving Missouri. For me it was more of a matter of abuses of authority, and the politics over who had what authority, and while I would have recognized our system of governance as flawed and imperfect, I felt that was the case of any other option. When I started to look at this issue more indepthly, that's when I saw that the Catholic system made a whole lot more sense, and was in fact, established by Christ. (But certainly able to be abused.)
Dan
____________________
http://www.beatvsvir.blogspot.com
God in His omnipotence could not give more,
in His wisdom He knew not how to give more,
in His riches He had not more to give,
than the Eucharist. - St. Augustine
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1644 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 10:16 pm |
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Hi Dan,
Thanks so much! Wonderful. I feel a great affinity with Lutherans. They're close to us in many ways, which is one reason, I think, why we're seeing a significant influx of Lutheran converts.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Barolo
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| Joined: | Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic Atheist Stoned out Hippy Atheist Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 12:09 am |
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Ciao Dan,
Thank you for the excellent read. I wish I had such a noble path, instead I was more of a junkyard dog, until some Iraqi Catholic who I thought was insane kept insisting that I read G.K. Chesterton... and all that Giant's good sense (he was/is a living aphorism) in the form of paradox brought me closer and closer to the Mother Church, whence I had escaped with a vengeance.
I don't feel worthy of Christ and so I pray to the Blessed Virgin. Santa Maria, Madonna immacolata... She is helpful beyond measure for those like me, low in theology and with lots of life and sin behind them. I can understand that love, or rather sense it in many meaningful ways.
Oh! And Ciao Mr. Dave Armstrong,
Thank you for the excellent books, all twelve of them! I hope that after reading them all twice, I can one day tackle Cardinal Newman. You owe me quite a few sleepless nights.
Dan, I just heard about now and I wish him a world of well, but you! You and all your debates and dialogues and controversies are a hero for me and my number one link source for information. One of these days when I'm back in the money, I'll have to send you a case of wine from Italy (where I live).
Hugs to you both.
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kersca
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| Joined: | Fri May 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 60 |
| First Name: | Adam | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lutheran-Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 10:47 am |
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Dan,
CCAA... Well of course it's significant. Concordia is actually a very fine college and should be a model for today's Catholic Colleges. I was an older student graduate in December of 99. When I went through there I found some very kind people with a strong love for God in many of their hearts. Don't get me wrong, I definitely did receive some anticatholic bias. However, I just figure that if the Catholic Church was as doctrinally corrupt as they mistakenly think it is, I would react the same way. Most never really looked at the teachings of the Church. If they had, I am suure their love of ZGod would have them speak more charitably of her.
So Dan, what are you doing now that you are Catholic? That must be a very hard thing considering you made your livelihood as a pastor.
Adam
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Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 930 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jun 4th, 2008 01:56 pm |
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Dan, Welcome Home and welcome to the Forum!
It takes a lot of courage to convert and leave behind all that you've worked for and honestly believed as you pursued your past goals based on those beliefs. I applaud both your courage and actions.
One of the hardest things we all have to deal with is the feelings of the spouse who's still feeling like the proverbial train rider who just got off a long trip and still feels like he or she's still riding the rails hours later.
Of course, it can be much worse than that just due to the emotional hangover of feeling left in the lurch. Any kind of major change, religious, career, political and other philosophical 180 degree changes can truly throw a relationship off orbit, leaving the spouse who's stayed consistent (for good or bad) left feeling "Hmm, this guy/gal isn't the one I married." Well, that's true for all of us, but for the most part, we generally keep a lot, if not most, of what we brought into the relationship.
This was one lesson I had to keep in the back of my head at all times when I was making my way back after I'd decided to return once and for all.
After all -- we don't want to give that fellow named LaHaye,* a former Catholic, any more reasons to write another "Left Behind" screed, only this one being "non-fiction" and centering on utterly needless horor anecdotes contributed by left-behind spouses who never got over our changed spiritual belief and--most unforgiveable in their eyes-- any desires to ACT upon them.
May God Bless you as you continue your, and your family's journey. It takes a lot of guts to do what you've done already. Congrats and Go Always With God!
Steven
(* I'm trying to be as charitable as possible: However, when authors like Tim LaHaye attempt to describe The Church in a "non-fictional" manner, it never hurts to put the "hooks" of quotation marks around the words "non-fiction.")Last edited on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 01:57 pm by Steven Barrett
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 1644 |
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 06:16 pm |
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| You're very welcome Steven. Thanks for reading, and a warm welcome to you, too. It's wonderful to see so many people coming to this forum and showing interest in the Catholic faith.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 09:04 pm |
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Tim LaHaye was formerly a Catholic? I've read a lot about him, but I've never seen that statement made about him before.
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 930 |
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 11:35 pm |
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Yes. He doesn't make a big deal out of it. And in some fairness, whatever Catholic exposure he had, it was fleeting when he was very little But he was. And, like a lot of ex-catholics, they can be the meanest kind when it comes to dishing it back.
The sad thing is about this man, and many other ex-catholics who "all of a sudden discovered (or heard) the Gospel at Pastor Bill's "Little Whole Bible and Nothing But the Whole Bible Chapel by the Wayside" he got just enough of only just what his church or denomination's formation "team" deemed necessary to make a valid "claim" of faith against Catholicism to make him dangerous to the souls of other people and himself, as well.
I've copied some Google listings that'll sure help get you started. Have fun.
And to think so many people took this stuff seriously enough to plunk so much money they wish they had now just to buy a half-a-tank of gas! The gas that'll be gone in a few hours is still a smarter buy!   Rapture me up!  (Psssst--I don't know how I could upset LaHaye more: ripping into the shoddy, and I mean low-brow shoddy, sub-bargain basement level shoddy "quality" of these things they call books, or mentioning LaHaye has a Catholic connection.) 
The Best-Selling Bigotry of Left Behind
Carl E. Olson is the editor of IgnatiusInsight.com. His best-selling books Will Catholics Be “Left Behind”? and The Da Vinci Hoax are available from ...
http://www.catholicleague.org/research/leftbehind.htm - 14k - [url=http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:70hDLkR5oRcJ:http://www.catholicleague.org/research/leftbehind.htm+Olson,+Left+Behind&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us]Cached[/url] - [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T5GGLL_enUS276US276&q=related:http://www.catholicleague.org/research/leftbehind.htm]Similar pages[/url] - Note this
+ Christian Book Reviews + » Olson, Carl E.
May 13, 2006 ... In Will Catholics Be Left Behind?, Olson exposes the many cracks in the dispensationalist system to the light of day and leaves it in utter ...
christianbookreviews.net/?cat=68 - 73k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Left Behind: Raptured Believers and Enraptured Readers ...
Weblog: Readers Apparently Enraptured with Latest Left Behind, Now #1 The Indwelling hits number one on New York Times bestseller list Compiled by Ted Olsen ...
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/special/leftbehind.html - 50k - [url=http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:qcE1sJM1ROIJ:http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/special/leftbehind.html+Olson,+Left+Behind&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us]Cached[/url] - [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T5GGLL_enUS276US276&q=related:http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/special/leftbehind.html]Similar pages[/url] - Note this
Will Catholics be 'Left Behind'? - OLSON, CARL E.
Will Catholics be 'Left Behind'?; OLSON, CARL E.. Offered by Windows Booksellers.
http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/win/EN1040.shtml - 4k - [url=http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:3-AQJUmnfIQJ:http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/win/EN1040.shtml+Olson,+Left+Behind&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us]Cached[/url] - [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T5GGLL_enUS276US276&q=related:http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/win/EN1040.shtml]Similar pages[/url] - Note this
[PDF]
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Jun 6th, 2008 02:32 am |
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I glanced through the articles you mentioned, but I didn't see any mention of LaHaye ever being a Catholic. They are all about his anti-Catholic stance.
Wikepedia also does not mention it either. He was born in Detroit, his father's funeral was at a non-Catholic church when LaHaye was 9, he got a BA from Bob Jones University, and DMin from Western Seminary and was a Baptist pastor.
I remember reading several years ago about his mother's influence on his life, and she was of a Baptist-type faith tradition.
I know this is off-topic from the main thrust of this thread, but I would like to see this apparent inconsistency cleared up.
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catholicxjw
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| Joined: | Wed Jul 9th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Jeff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Jehovah's Witness to Lutheran to Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 12:37 pm |
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Hi:
Former Concordia Seward, NE Professor here. 
Jeff S.
http://www.catholicxjw.com
P.S. I loved that place!
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 04:13 pm |
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Hello, Steven. Welcome to the forum.
You are going to make a very interesting addition to our group.
I'm glad the Lord has led you out of that painful past.
Grace and peace,
Becky
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Barolo
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| Joined: | Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 10th, 2008 09:57 pm |
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Thank you for your welcome Intercessor,
I really enjoy reading Evangelicals who have become Catholics - please don't laugh, but also because one of my instinctively favorite musical genres is Bluegrass / Gospel. And also because their humanity and the REAL NEED for their kind of zeal, cured me of an initial "snobbish" pre-Council approach to Catholicism.
When I saw how they were treated by the ultra-traditionalists (though I wonder what such a term can mean to a faith that is tradition and revolution all balled up) I understood my error... and then reading Dave Armstrong's extremely peaceful and reasoned dialogues with Protestants of all stripes - and in a way - himself (and praying) did the rest.
Sometimes I wonder if at least part of the Council's purpose was to "tap" this very real, wonderfully vibrant resource.
But as I said, mostly I gravitated after many close encounters with and absorption of EVIL.
Burning the candle from all sides... and the more suicidal the lifestyle, the more I felt I had something to teach... but add a couple of kids to the picture and I noticed that my "teaching" was deconstruction and Unlearning.
I also remembered how at the time I hadn't really wanted either of them and even considered aborting the second. I was saved because I was lucky to be surrounded by a culture of life. i.e. the minute it was discovered that my wife was pregnant, a couple of relatives already started knitting blankets and suggesting names.
Left to my own devices I would have murdered them, if not the first, definitely my second daughter. I am crying now, crying, crying... It is not good to curse, but curses on this culture of death, this evil all around us. I don't mean the sinners, but the teachings. How could I mean the sinners? I was one of them and of course I still am, though at least concerning childbirth I tell every girl I meet to forget the planned parenthood baloney. Nobody has a minimum 18 maximum 120 years free on their agenda. It's a gift, and the finest anyone can receive. It's as crazy as "planned dreamhood," or "planned lotteryhood"
Anyhow, when I was still somewhere caught in the middle, tempted but still heavily resistent, (no incense, rosaries and St. Sebastian statues for me!) I got heavily involved in debating forums, especially anti-Islamic sites frequented by people of all faiths and many atheists as well. Thinking is an excellent exercise.
Because "good" Muslim debaters are very hard to come by, most of the time it would be "western" issues, like gay marriage, multi-culturalism, euthanasia, abortion, prostitution, etc.
I saw this constant cry for a sort of meaningless freedom (any ex-druggie has little trouble understanding Janis Joplins: "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose," so on that end, at least from personal experience, I knew they were jiving). It's as if they were all living in a North Korea of their own making. The modern world offers so much in the way of "freedom" - I mean traveling has never been so easy, getting songs, sending messages, changing cuisines, access to information, downloading films, having sex, getting drunk or stoned... and yet everyone was hankering for more freedom and felt terrifically oppressed!
Anyhow, then one day, talking about prostitution and how it's just another job and in places like Berlin, Call Girl services have ads covering the entire sides of buildings, with sexy babes that can knock the socks off superman, addresses, phone numbers, guaranteed satisfaction, etc. just like any other "product"... BAM it hit me. It all made eminent sense from one point of view: this way they can pay taxes, this way there is no shame, this way there's freedom. Magazines, the intelligentzia (I know I spelled it wrong), the cultural luminaries, the hip, the trendy, the great post-modern philosophers, EVERYBODY could believe it... It MADE SENSE. It was logical.
But you know who would never buy it? The one and only person in the world you'd never convince? The girl's mother. And that's how I discovered Mary, the Blessed Virgin, and the Mother Church. Mama's can be wrong, but unless they are unwell, they care.
The sight of Islamic mothers ululating with glee over the murderous suicide of their Jihadists sons, confusing suicide with marriage, was, after that realization, all I ever needed in terms of prrof that Islam is insane.
Care, loving, motherly care... then you can twist words and philosophies, till your heart's content, build up great thought systems, tweak them, watch someone smarter turn them into dust and wind you and your great thoughts like a yo-yo.
Then always on those inter-faith (including atheism) forums, there would be the Buddhists and Hindus, especially the latter with their talk about transcendental meditation. Very alluring, very deep... until BAM! The very nation symbol of spirituality, of deep meditation, gurus, India, wound up slaughtering 60 million baby girls and venerating bovines!
I'm not a philosopher, and excuse me if I use the wrong terms, but after that, I understood that "Morality trumps Metaphysics." That's how the Old Testament and the New suddenly leapt to my attention. Law and Love are about caring, which is the basis of it all. There's no human reason why one must care. The world can be as illusory and senseless as the Buddhists say it is. We also say "Sic transit gloria mundi"... but we have faith.
And from a certain point of view that faith is actually crazier and wild-eyed, illogical than any Dawkins atheist could imagine. That's one of the beauties of Catholicism: you can even be a better atheist than the atheists. It is easy to imaginatively plunge back into chaos and passive despair. That's what "makes sense."
But then from there one realizes that the very notion of "sense" is religious. Science herself would never have come about without a belief in settled order and purpose and truth akin to some GREAT TRUTH.
What Dawkins and company say is not rationally true enough in describing the total, unmitigated, wild-eyed "insanity" of faith... except for the rather unsettling fact that Dawkins and company are using arguments that are literally bristling with faith. (the "good" of mankind, logic and illogic, truth and falsity, sets and subsets, the perversity and non-perversity of withholding provisional assent, reason and evidence, relevance, irrelevance, and so on and so forth). They too are "faithheads," but without being "faith-hearts."
This alienation, this split personality of using the instruments of irrational caring and believing to destructive purposes is increasingly manifest.
Between nihilism and faith, they choose nihilism (intellectually more satisfying), yet they still go about on faith. This itself might be called "perverse"... but because of the importance of life, it can only be called sinful.
Why? Because it puts the great power created by settled order/purpose into the hands of chaotic/nihilistic "whatever."
And the EVIL is palpable. I saw it in Rome when the Holy Father's visit to La Sapienza University had to be canceled due to threats from the freedom-lovers. La Sapienza, one of the world's oldest universities was started by the Mother Church herself, centuries ago... and they wouldn't even listen to a peaceful man who reasons and writes so beautifully, who has no army except for some Swiss Guards and their Halberds, who is old and probably not much longer for this world, who's written 80 books or more. The freedom-lovers would've killed me with drugs, prevented the conception of my daughters, called them zygotes and killed them, sent them to become tax-paying prostitutes, and kept them from listening to an old scholar full of wisdom (never mind his religion), and they would have told her than a Lesbian marriage is the same as a fertile one (like saying an airport tarmac is like rich brown topsoil).
I'm afraid I'd have to be a Catholic even if I didn't want to be... just to go on being rational.
And so God bless you Evangelicals, with your Bible quotes after every sentence. I used to think you were all fanatics, and well sometimes perhaps we all are... but compared to the fanaticism and evil, the palpable, sulfur-reeking evil that's out there, we all need to pitch in. My angle on it is the sense of the Blessed Virgin, mother and child, love to all potential. She is the finest philosopher, social thinker, family-consultant I can think of. But there are many ways to Jesus. And the lowliest of men can be wiser than the greatest thinkers. We think with our hearts, which I guess is like baking a cake in the dishwasher, but if everything is crazy and an illusion, there's one way that has the distinction of being both the craziest and the sanest.
Last edited on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 10:05 pm by Barolo
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