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llblarosa
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Started Baptist, Tried Many, Converted to Catholicism |
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 02:34 pm |
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Anyone converted to Christ because you had a life-changing vision?
Lisa
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 04:50 pm |
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I know of one man who came back to his Christian faith (unfortunately not his Catholic roots directly) but he's a much better person, though because he has returned to Christ through reading Hebrews 12, particularly that section where God shows His love through how He disciplines His sons.
My good friend, my "brother from another," told me he learned this while serving time in a (truly) "rotten hole of" a state prison. It turned him around and helped him to earn the trust of the warden and a much earlier parole than expected. Believe me, this man is an inspiration to me; regardless of any theological/denominational differences we share and most importantly discuss in a friendly, almost bantering teasing way. He came home, and works hard to stay home -- and that's what counts in the long run. 
____________________
For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 07:03 pm |
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My personal journey has not been characterized by visions, but I do know several people who claim to have had them and indeed were converted to Christ and Catholicism by them. Two of them were members of this forum.
David
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llblarosa
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 08:23 pm |
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Any idea where I can find out more about this phenomenon?
Lisa
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 03:47 am |
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I have a number of scholarly resources on visions and other spiritual phenomena, but I don’t recommend them to laymen because they are not easy reading, and some of them are no longer available. About the closest I can come to a recommendation would be the autobiography (the “Life,” as it is called) of St. Teresa of Avila. Her style is very engaging and may be more or less intelligible to you. There are many interesting descriptions of visions, but one must remember that it is written as an account of her life experience to her confessor, not as a textbook on the topic.
The specific topic of visions and other extraordinary phenomena as a vehicle of religious conversion is, I believe, very overrated due to the unfortunate high incidence of self deception and outright fraud. This does not mean that such visions do not happen; they undoubtedly do. But Church teaching on visions, along with locutions, levitation, speaking in tongues and many other spiritual phenomena, is that they are like charisms in that no prior holiness is required, and because of human free will, no fruits are mandatory for them to be authentic.
Do you have a specific question or concern? Perhaps I can provide a more satisfactory reply based on it.
David
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Steven Barrett
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 04:10 am |
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Dave, a Spanish film company made a film about St. Teresa of Avila and it's shown every now and then on EWTN and also available for sale in various Catholic/Chrisitian book/video sales dist. outlets.
I remember the vision scene quite well and it's NOT something you want to leave a young person alone or a newly converted person alone with without offering any suitable explanation. It's so well done as to really elevate the psychological level of the the saint's drama to a point that it could be unnerving w/o some background help. But it's an excellent example of cinematic history. The acting is also of the highest quality.
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For anybody interested in reading commentary from a Catholic's socially conservative/fiscally liberal viewpoint, go to my new blog at http://www.politicsramble.com/ .
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 04:32 am |
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Yes, Steven, I’ve seen the series several times. It is one of the most authentic pieces of cinematic hagiography I have encountered. The vision scene, of course, is a dramatic representation of an inner event, so it must remain just a symbol of the reality. But I must say that it very effectively portrays that inner light as St. Teresa writes of it.
Anyone who has experience of the deep graces of prayer knows how forceful they can be, even in the span of a moment. It is like a seal placed on the person’s soul, God claiming this creature for his own. But here I am speaking more of “touches” than of “visions.”
David
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llblarosa
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 10th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Started Baptist, Tried Many, Converted to Catholicism |
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 09:42 am |
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I believe I experienced one. Indeed, it implies no holiness! In fact, I believe God granted me it for quite the opposite reason. I was recently reading in St. Teresa's Way of Perfection that she thought God did indeed grant these to truly reprobate people, to bring them back to Him. I was wondering if there were descriptions of these visions anywhere. I think of this experience often, and I am wondering if my experience is something that can be attained again by prayer, by holiness. I am not finished reading the Way of Perfection, so maybe she does go into this.
Thank you all,
Lisa
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Apr 17th, 2008 07:47 pm |
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I believe I experienced one.
As I mentioned above, it may well have been authentic. You should be thankful, while remembering that it is better to be in the good graces of the Lord than it is to receive any quantity of favors and miracles. For a miracle or vision will not get you to heaven, but his forgiveness will.
I was wondering if there were descriptions of these visions anywhere.
Yes, I mentioned a book above that has many such descriptions. Since you are already reading St. Teresa, you will find her Life a very natural sequel. The Way of Perfection does not contain much about visions because its purpose is to speak of praying the Our Father (the Lord’s Prayer), but her other book has frequent descriptions.
Another book you may enjoy reading is Divine Mercy in My Soul, the Diary of St. Faustina Kowalska. It too has descriptions of many visions, especially of the Child Jesus.
Finally, you must understand that any gift of God, such as a vision, is just that — a gift. No one can ever “attain” such a thing because it is not merited, but given. This is true of the greatest saints just as much as it is of the likes of you and me, for no one is deserving, and He gives to whom he will.
David
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brian
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Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 05:23 am |
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"Finally, you must understand that any gift of God, such as a vision, is just that — a gift. No one can ever “attain” such a thing because it is not merited, but given. This is true of the greatest saints just as much as it is of the likes of you and me, for no one is deserving, and He gives to whom he will."
David, this confused me. Not about visions per se bt about the idea of receiving gifts. For, while I have to agree that none of us merit any gift we receive from God, it seems we are taught to do what we can do be as well disposed to receive whatever gifts God would want to give us. Stil, it is His choice or will to give the gift, but I think that if we do not live our best at times we may not be as well prepared or able to receive the gift.
Some of what I remember Fr. Dubay teaching about contemplative prayer has to do with getting rid of sin as much as possible to make yourself more able to receive what God wants to give you. Now this is not the same thing as earning the gift, yet it seems in some way a product or reward for personal holiness pursued by the individual believer. I also know that grace is the reason we do or receive any good thing. Therefore, even if there were some prerequisite to receiving some sort of spiritual gift it would still be because of graces given.
Are visions such a separate gift that we can not say why they would be given whereas other gifts are just natural consequences of a holy life? For instance, the more one seeks God, the more Christ like that person will become. The better and more patient they will be at loving others or persevering in hard times.
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 10:02 pm |
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David, this confused me. Not about visions per se but about the idea of receiving gifts. For, while I have to agree that none of us merit any gift we receive from God, it seems we are taught to do what we can do be as well disposed to receive whatever gifts God would want to give us. Still, it is His choice or will to give the gift, but I think that if we do not live our best at times we may not be as well prepared or able to receive the gift.
We cannot “bring about” or “procure” a gift of God, Brian, but we can dispose ourselves to receive such a gift if it is offered. This is because the gift is an act of God, and we cannot act for him, however much we would like to. We can, of course, act in accordance with his grace (which must be assumed in any case for our good acts) by removing obstacles to his act of generosity, if he so wills to act in that manner. In any case, it must all begin with God, for “apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5).
My statement simply reminds everyone that no one can force God to be so generous as to bestow his gifts. This is his, and his alone, to determine.
I think you do understand what I said, but perhaps since the statement was not “balanced” by a corresponding statement concerning what the positive human role is, you saw it as incomplete. And in a sense you are right. But I also think that, in the context of the original question, it was better to reply as I did so as to leave no doubt that God must, according to his own counsel, initiate any bestowal of gifts such as visions. Nothing we can do will change that. Even if we remove obstacles as recommended, it is still up to his good pleasure to actually grant the favor.
David
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