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thosbrown
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 15th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 3 |
| First Name: | Thomas | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Reformed Church, Presbyterian Church in America |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 12:37 am |
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Has anyone experienced being placed under church discipline at their Protestant church (denomination) upon considering or preparing to enter the Catholic Church? I am a member of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), and believe that formally (i.e. technically), I may be close to needing to be placed under discipline by my session. Has anyone received a "letter of transfer" to leave their past and enter Catholicism?
My concern is with doing things with integrity, or in an upright fashion. I want to be open and honest with my session. I don't want to pick the fight though, and force them to place me under discipline when they'd rather just let me pursue my conscience (though that would be contrary to the letter of the denominations rules). However, I also don't want to forsake an opportunity to 1) seek their instruction and correction (where needed), and 2) challenge them to present me with a defense of sola Scriptura that I have not been able to find elsewhere. It could be good for them as it could be good for me.
I appreciate the time that anyone spends considering these issues and sharing with me.
In the Peace of Christ,
Tom
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5350 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 12:53 am |
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thosbrown wrote: Has anyone experienced being placed under church discipline at their Protestant church (denomination) upon considering or preparing to enter the Catholic Church? I am a member of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), and believe that formally (i.e. technically), I may be close to needing to be placed under discipline by my session. Has anyone received a "letter of transfer" to leave their past and enter Catholicism?
My concern is with doing things with integrity, or in an upright fashion. I want to be open and honest with my session. I don't want to pick the fight though, and force them to place me under discipline when they'd rather just let me pursue my conscience (though that would be contrary to the letter of the denominations rules). However, I also don't want to forsake an opportunity to 1) seek their instruction and correction (where needed), and 2) challenge them to present me with a defense of sola Scriptura that I have not been able to find elsewhere. It could be good for them as it could be good for me.
First of all, Thomas, let me welcome you to the Coming Home Network and to the Catholic faith. I am a cradle Catholic (meaning I was baptized Catholic as an infant) so I have not experienced the conversion difficulties of many of our members, but I do believe it is not your obligation to force them to place you under any disciplinary penalties. Jesus certainly would not have demanded penalties just for your intention to pursue truth as you saw it, although he certainly foresaw the possibilities.
Pursue your conscience. Leave it to them to decide what formalities must be met. I admire your willingness to submit to their "correction" and I am confident they will not be able to justify sola scriptura since it has no basis in scripture.
Welcome home.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Perplexed
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 12th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | ET | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Baptist - Reformed -- Episcopalian -- Presbyterian -- nothing |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 02:02 am |
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I'm also attending a PCA church of my wife's choosing (long story) so can sympathize. Do you hold any position in the church -- deacon, elder? If you do, you might be correct in that you probably should present yourself. However, I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. CajunRick, if you don't hold such office, and recommend you leave off stirring the waters until you are sure of your next move and the Lord's leading. I'll be interested to hear more of your journey, though!
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1644 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 02:13 am |
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Hi Thomas,
Welcome. I think it is good to regard this trial as an opportunity to share. You have to follow your conscience. Sometimes Protestants act so weird during conversion processes that the new or soon-to-be Catholic has great opportunity to exhibit the love of Christ in contrast to all the judgmentalism and emotionalism.
God has a plan in all this!
Last edited on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 05:12 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 03:14 am |
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I also welcome you, Thomas. There are some nice folks here and I think that you will enjoy participaing. Again, welcome!
As for church discipline, I have heard that some groups, such as the Amish, might withdraw fellowship from a member, for various reasons, but have never heard of the Presbyterians doing it. I have, in my life, been a member of an independent Christian Church, Episcopal Church and two Baptist Churches. Had I been a church official or minister, they might have quietly ask me to resign from that position, however, they would not have done anything to me as a rank and file church member for wishing to go to another church. Now some members might privately disapprove of me, but, insofar as I am aware, many protestant churches and fellowships would likely just wish me well whenever I decided what to do. In the church in which I currently hold membership (a Baptist Church), they have had people join there from other denominations, including Catholic, and they have had people leave to go to other churches, including Catholic, and nobody so much as raised an eyebrow that I ever heard anything about. They've even had people serve in various capacities for years and then they finally applied for membership having not even been members. Some people, like me, think that Catholics are fine, wonderful folks and would not feel any concern about you joining the Catholic Church while some people may have some prejudice against the Catholic Church or some other denominations so you may experience some informal social coolness from some people, however, all we can do is just pray for those people realizing that they are not acting as Jesus would have them act. Anyway, while standing willing to be corrected, insofar as I am aware, I would not imagine that a Presbyterian session would take any action against you other than, perhaps, asking you quietly to step down from any church office you may hold if you plan to go to the Catholic Church.
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Intercessor
Member
| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1233 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 06:35 am |
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Hello, Thomas. Welcome to the CHNI Forum.
It's a very uncomfortable feeling sometimes still being in a Protestant church while one is considering a move to the Catholic faith. It gets even stickier when one has leadership responsibilities.
I resolved that I would not present teaching contrary to my Protestant fellowship but that I would not violate my own conscience either. In a few matters I had to preface a statement with something like "Baptist doctrine teaches that . . ." Or, sometimes I would give the Baptist position on a scripture and then add what other religions/denominations taught on that scripture.
When I had studied enough to know I wanted to become a Catholic, I met privately with a priest and placed myself under his authority. He would not give me permission that evening to inform my Baptist pastors or members of my decision. We met again five days later. He asked whether I was indeed prepared to make a complete break with the Baptist church. I was.
My priest advised me to avoid a face-to-face encounter with church officials. He also suggested that I make no formal request to have my name removed from membership. I was advised to allow the Baptist church to respond to my decision in whatever way they deemed appropriate. I began praying hard that God would prepare my pastors to receive the shocking news I would be delivering.
In an email to the pastor who supervised me, I asked to be relieved from my church responsibilities, explained that I would be contacting him in a few days with further information, and assured him that I was not upset with anyone. I also arranged for someone to cover my responsibilities for the next three weeks.
Then I wrote a letter to the pastors in which I sincerely expressed appreciation and love for them, gave a brief explanation of my journey toward Catholicism, and made it clear that my decision was final. I have not returned to the building since but have maintained cordial contact with the people.
They were generous, affirming, and loving in their responses. I believe my priest gave me some wise counsel. Face-to-face sessions would have been a terrible wrench for all of us.
Thomas, I pray you also have the counsel of a wise priest.
Grace and peace,
Becky
____________________
"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 661 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 09:34 am |
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How close are you to joining the Church? I was approached by an elder of the JW's at my work who threatened me with disfellowhipping when he realized my dd was attending a Catholic school. {rolls eyes} I hadn't even been associated with a congregation for 10 years.
Some friends made me realized that since I wasn't associated with them anymore, and my loyalty was now to the Catholic church, I didn't have to play by their rules. Huh, they had so much control over me, that I never realized that I had already moved on and that their decisions didn't affect me anymore. They could do whatever they wanted. I did not have to attend any meetings or consent to their disipline. Once I got that in my head I was much more at peace.
But if you are just in searching mode, not ready to commit the the Catholic church (I couldn't tell from your post where you're at), then I imagine your situation may need handled differently. Honestly, I can't imagine anything good coming out of a JW disiplinary meeting for being interested in other faiths. {shudder} Good thing you aren't JW!
Ali
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Mr Tibbs
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| Joined: | Wed Apr 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Tennessee USA |
| Posts: | 4 |
| First Name: | Jim | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, Christian Church (Stone Campbell) Now Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 12:15 pm |
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Many thanks for these posts. I find myself in much the same situation. Easter Vigil is coming soon and coming into the Catholic Church is a definite decision for me. I had thought that a request for withdrawal of membership would be the path to pursue. I haven't been attending much and they probably wonder why. Not being very well versed in appologetics I've been trying to avoid any confortation . I'll probably be having some contact with them in the future as they will probably be calling me in the future when they need more keys. I had rekeyed the building a year or so ago. I work part time as a locksmith. Sooner or later I know I'll be having contact with them. Pray for me that I'll be prepared when the time comes.
Jim
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Mr Tibbs
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thosbrown
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 15th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 3 |
| First Name: | Thomas | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Reformed Church, Presbyterian Church in America |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 01:01 pm |
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I'm somewhat overwhelmed at how responsive this forum is. Thank you, all.
[Dave: we wrote a little bit months ago about a Reformed Baptist blog that's oh-so-frustrating. It's funny to hear from you as, coincidentally, I'm reading your "A Biblical Defense of Catholicism"!]
I didn't mean to be cryptic in my post, but I suppose that after sniffing around Catholicism for nearly four years, I've developed quite the habit of keeping the extent of my interest on the down-low. First, I am not in "office" in the PCA, just a plain-old member. Second, I'm fairly close to being certain I'm going to join the Catholic Church. I've signed up to start RCIA next August (sooo far away). I look forward to it.
The PCA's Book of Church Order has some interesting rules, but I doubt any of them will be strictly invoked. Because they won't be, the advice to let them do with me as they may is probably the best. I could be brought for charges of committing an "offense", which is defined as holding any belief contrary to the Bible (as they see it). If I'm not tried, and I ultimately announce I'm changing to a Catholic church, they would (likely) inform me that I have left the "visible" church. This is the procedure when a member leaves the PCA for a "denomination" that does not "maintain the Word and Sacraments in their fundamental integrity".
If the denomination believes that becoming Catholic is so much worse than becoming Baptist or mainline Methodist, such that I would not longer be part of the visible church, I want them to stand up tall and say that. I suppose we'll never hammer out our differences if we keep silent. But I don't want to stir dissent unnecessarily.
Peace in Christ,
Tom
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Tina in Ashburn
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| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 281 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 02:48 pm |
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Are there tithing commitments involved with no longer being a member of a congregation? Is there ever any need to let someone know that you will no longer be supporting that church?
Being a lifelong Catholic, my only experience is going from parish to parish, and registering as a parishioner of that new parish, and letting the former one know I've left. This typically takes one off the mailing list and offering envelopes. It hasn’t been an intrusive process at all.
Good luck with this Thomas.
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
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EMarshallBuckles
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 622 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 03:21 pm |
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Regarding tithing commitments, the churches I have been associated with have usually had formal statements which say something to the effect that they realize that changing financial circumstances may cause a member to revise their pledge up or down or some such. Most churches of which I am aware often actually receive only a certain per centage of the money which is pledged each year. I think that most budget under that assumption. I keep up with a number of churches in my area (just an interest of mine) and frequently see appeals, usually during the summer, of "Hey, could you all PLEASE possibly either bring your pledge up to date or possibly give more?! We're really running behind!!" Sometimes staff members get laid off and/or programs cut, etc. because the churches members aren't keeping up with their annual pledges. Some people, when they leave churches, will pay up their pledge and some just leave and forget about their pledge. I don't know if any churches have ever resorted to collection methods to get people to pay up but I haven't heard of any doing that. If they did, they would likely find themselves losing members and getting into financial difficulties. However, all things considered, it is truly amazing that many churches manage to "make ends meet" and keep going under circumstances which might cause many secular organizations to cease to exist.
As for church membership, just as a point of interest, I was amazed to find that when I joined the Episcopal Church, apparently they pretty much took my word that I had been baptized in a Christian Church and they apparently never wrote to my Christian Church to ask for a letter transfering membership. Then, when I joined a Baptist Church, they were one of the kinds which don't accept baptism from other denominations and so they required me to be baptized again (later, when I came to the Richmond area and joined my present church, they said that they would not have required me to be rebaptized). So, all this by way of saying that, technically, I may be still a member of my old Christian Church and still a member of my old Episcopal Church while a member of my present Baptist Church. Don't know for sure but, unless they finally just erased my membership, as some churches do when they don't hear from people for a long time, I could possibly still be a member of three churches.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1644 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 05:15 pm |
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Thanks for reading, Thomas. That site is no less frustrating than ever!
JW's at my work who threatened me with disfellowhipping
Freudian slip there, Ali?    
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Ali
Member
| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 661 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:01 pm |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Thanks for reading, Thomas. That site is no less frustrating than ever!
JW's at my work who threatened me with disfellowhipping
Freudian slip there, Ali?
OMGoodness, I really and truely LOL'ed at that one! 
Thanks for the laugh.
Ali
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 16th, 2008 08:04 pm |
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| No problem, Ali! Glad to be of service! (deep bow where you hold out your hat like they do in the old movies).
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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tedjenczewski
Member
| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 262 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jan 17th, 2008 01:59 am |
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| Hi Tom, and Welcome Home. I attend a PCA church wth my wife but hold the catholic faith. So I understand what you are considering. I recommend you avoid a formal confrontation with the "session" unless you are knowlegable in apologetics and can defend the major catholic teachings which presbyterians dispute such as: the apostolic tradition, the authority of the pope and magesterium, the relationship between faith and works, the relationship between free will and grace, veneration of Mary and the saints etc. I personnaly feel comfortable with these subjects, but I would want to show up at the session meeting with my handy reference materials such as "Catholic Doctrine in Scripture" and "A Biblical Defense of Catholicism" and "Where is that in the Bible". A meeting with the session might cause you anxiety during a time in which the peace of Christ should be with you.
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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thosbrown
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 15th, 2008 |
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| First Name: | Thomas | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Reformed Church, Presbyterian Church in America |
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 08:37 pm |
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Ted,
Thanks for the advice. I think because of the way I've gone about my discernment process, I've wound having a fair grasp of apologetics, at least relative to people not used to 'refuting' Catholicism. This has been particularly important because of my family's solid Reformed background. But I'm with you all the same, that a meeting with the session would be intimidating, and seems very unlikely that it would change the elders there. I could even wind up mistakenly convincing myself that expressing what I see to be deep flaws in Reformational claims will cause others to open their eyes too...
Pray for Unity!
Tom
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Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 208 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 10:31 pm |
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Before I had any leanings toward the Catholic Church, I wrote a piece for the website at the nondenominational church I was in, and ran into church discipline. I was asked to write an essay for the website of our women's group, and I chose to write about Mary's statement in her song that all generations would call her blessed. The essay was about how I had never called her blessed, and how Mary was actually the first believer because she believed the Angel Gabriel when he told her that she would give birth to the Son of God, and other truths about Mary. For almost every sentence in the essay, I provided a scripture reference, because we were a "Bible-believing church." My little essay caused a big stir among leadership, and it was not published, and I was told that it would give people the wrong idea about our church. I didn't argue. After that, I noticed that I was no longer asked to write essays, and even though I was allowed to continue in my area of ministry, roadblocks, detours and sudden stops seemed to spring up along the way. Plus I was going through deep soul-searching. If we were a Bible-believing church, and everything that I'd said in the essay was from the Bible, and yet the church didn't approve of it, were we really a Bible-believing church? I can look back now and thank God for blocking all the roadways in Protestantism, because it made me look for the first time back into ancient writers who followed along after the apostles, and, thus, look for the first time at the Catholic Church. After about six months, I became a Catholic in my heart. When I informed the pastor, he kicked me out overnight! The next day I happened to see a husband and wife from leadership in the grocery store, and they turned their backs on me! It was a very rough time, yet I'm glad I wasn't called in to discuss the matter with anyone. Others before me who had been kicked out for not following the beliefs of Brother Kenneth Hagin had gone through "discussions" with leadership that essentially were a ganging up on the person raising questions. Probably if I'd been going to any other church, they would have wanted to discuss things with me, but since I was going Catholic, they considered me a lost cause.
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tedjenczewski
Member
| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 262 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 02:14 am |
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| May the peace of our lord Jesus Christ be with you Jane. The catholic faith is indeed supported and confirmed by the written word. And your testimony shows that even those who claim "sola scriptura" cannot deny the truth of catholic teaching when exposed to the supporting scriptural texts. In my oppinion you picked a great topic for your essay, as protestants seldom mention Mary yet the scriptures clearly reveal her high position in the kingdom of God.
____________________
"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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