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MichaelStEdmund
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 95 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 03:13 am |
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My conversion came almost four years ago, and looking back, I have to believe that it was a lifetime in coming. Not just one critical moment, but an entire series of them. I'm going to struggle to make this short. I'll probably fail at that ...:?
I was raised in one of the larger Pentacostal denominations, and I can't say that we were particularly anti-Catholic - we just felt sorry for anyone who wasn't one of us.
As a teen, I came into contact with a variety of people from various denominations through the charismatic movement of the 1970's. It was here that I met true, devout, practicing Catholics for the first time - a priest and a nun. I had to re-think my attitude toward my other brothers and sisters in Christ as a result. Unfortunately, it would be over twenty years before I'd meet any other Catholics at all like them.
At the same time, in exploring the faith I was raised in, I began to run into scattered references in Pentacostal literature to the Early Church Fathers. I became fascinated by these early Christians and began looking for their writings. I was just completely turned on by these people, and for the life of me I couldn't understand why none of the pastors, preachers, evangelists, teachers, etc. I was around cared anything about them. It would be years before I would run into the term "ahistorical," but I knew what it meant long ago. We were a people without much of a history or much of a memory - and what did it all matter, anyway, even if you knew about it? What mattered to us was what God was doing in his people now, in this present age. That's what really counted.
Shortly after high school I made my way through a series of small, non-denominational congregations. At that time I had a fuzzy idea about what "organized religion" was, but during this period I certainly became acquainted with disorganized religion. It left a bad taste in my mouth, permanently. Sweet people, often completely unaccountable to anyone, often hurting each other, following TV evangelists much more seriously than most Catholics have ever followed any pope. Like me, many of these folks drifted from one congregation to another, looking for a stable church home that was nowhere to be found.
In the early 1990's I came across a book by Robert Webber, "Evangelicals on the Canterbury Trail." For the first time in my life, I began to understand something else I was hungry for - liturgy and sacred tradition. It was like giving someone who was raised on KFC chicken a cook book. "Wow, I never heard of this before, have never even seen it, but it sounds GREAT!" I played around with the idea of becoming an Episopalian or converting to Orthodoxy, but never had the nerve to do anything about it. Catholicism, at the time, just didn't seem to be an option.
After spending several years in a stable, loving evangelical congregation, I began to realize that I still had some deep hungers that weren't going away any time soon. Again, the need for a sense of history, for liturgy, and for sacred tradition.
Eventually I began dating the woman who would become my wife, meeting her as "a friend of a friend." She was Catholic, but never put an ounce of pressure on me to convert. I'd never been to Mass, but she invited me to go with her. The first time I heard the Creed proclaimed in church, I felt completely at home. I knew those words. I knew that history. I knew what it cost the faithful in ancient times. I knew how precious it was. Now, I could take it as my own in a way that I never could before, and hear hundreds of other voices joining mine. It was simply an amazing moment. Finally, all of the writings of the Church Fathers and the history I knew could be hung upon a framework whose architect was God.
Then came the fear.
I had known precious few Catholics who knew or cared anything at all about their faith. Often I hear converts speak about how Mary or Purgatory was their biggest stumbling block. No, for me it focused on trying to figure out how such a magnificient faith could produce so many people who couldn't be bothered to give God the time of day. The words, "What's wrong with this picture?" occurs to me at this point.
You can tell me that I was being pretty judgmental, and you'd be right - but it was a question that absolutely haunted me. What if I found myself almost completely alone in my faith? That was a scary thought.
Finally, I just decided to convert for the only decent reason I had - the Church's story was logical, made sense, and struck me as being TRUE.
Besides, any friend of St. Clement of Rome had to be a friend of mine, right?
So, here I am, nearly four years later. Has it been as lonely as I thought it would be? In many cases, yes. In some cases, happily, I have been completely astounded by the faith and dedication I've seen. Was it worth it? Definitely.
Bless you all.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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Bill Kirscher
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Denver, Colorado USA |
| Posts: | 11 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Revert to Catholicism (dabled in Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Evangelical, Messianic ... |
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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 03:57 am |
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Brother Michael - thanks for sharing.
I'm a revert to Catholicism and struggle with some of the same things you bring up. During what I call my "desert wanderings" through Protestantism, I studied the Apostolic Fathers and came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church was truth. The great mystery to me, and quite honestly is still a challenge to my faith, is why there are so many "nominal" Catholics unwilling to share their faith.
Since my reversion, I've become much more active in my faith. I'm in my fourth year at the Denver Catholic Biblical School, I've joined the Neocatechumenal Way, and I participate in our parish men's group. My experience is that there really are Catholics living out there faith - you just aren't typically going to run into them in the parking lot on Sunday morning. I firmly believe that there are a good number of Catholics that are yearning for fellowship but I don't think it can be found by merely attending Mass one day a week and shooting out the door right away. I also believe Catholics are notorious for keeping their faith private. My experience in the small groups I've been involved in is that people really do want to share their faith but are uncomfortable doing so. I believe as more Catholics share their faith publicly, others will see that it is "okay" to do so and will join in fellowship as the opportunity arises.
Thanks for your "leap of faith" and sharing your story. May God continue to richly bless you!!!
Bill
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sewnsew
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 849 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 10:50 am |
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| Yeah The Church's biggest enemies can be her own people sometimes! That is what one of my kids keeps pointing out in regards to his classmates at Catholic school. We keep pointing out less than perfect people in our old Episcopal and newer Anglican congregation but he is so black and white about things sometime. To be very honest I know a mixture of devout but poorly catechized Catholics, devout knowledgeable Catholics and the Easter, Christmas and baptize the baby crowd. However I know the same mixture exists in many protestant churches too, once you start taking about why you became Catholic to someone who truly wants to know it sometimes opens up oceans of ignorance about their particular denomination.
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MichaelStEdmund
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 95 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Sat Dec 29th, 2007 12:13 pm |
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Thanks for the encouraging responses and the kind welcome. I do appreciate it so much.
It's certainly true that you don't get to see very much of people's faith if you walk out of the door directly after Mass. Over the past four years, I've become involved or at least have made a strong attempt to become involved in various ministries within Christ's Church. I was part of the choir at Christmas, even before the end of RCIA, so I was trying to get my foot in the door in some way even at that point.
I think that one of the greatest strengths of the RCC is also in some sense (bear with me) one of her greatest weaknesses too - the fact that she embraces such a broad range of humanity. This really wasn't true in the style of Darwinian evangelicalism I was used to. The evangelical churches I'd known only attracted like-minded people, winnowing out (intentionally or not) anyone who wasn't a "perfect fit." As a result, everyone was pretty much of the same race, the same social status, the same political orientation, and to a great extent the same level of spiritual development. Mind you, I'm generalizing, but I don't think I'm too far wrong here. It wasn't until I came to my Catholic parish that I saw people of various races, economic levels and stages of spiritual development all worshipping together.
On the level of revealed truth we all need to be in agreement, but in every other way there's incredible diversity. That means either walking into church looking for a "faithful remnant" (which as a Protestant I would certainly do) or walking in and simply accepting that we're all on the journey together. I've found this to be one of the more difficult things to wrap my head around, since throughout my life I was geared toward zeroing in on that "faithful remnant."
For instance, I had always been taught growing up that "not everyone who goes to church is saved." We believed in a vast, invisible spiritual Church that may or may not include the person sitting in the pew next to us. In my Catholic experience, however, most of the people at Mass with me in any given service had been baptized and had received the other sacraments. This meant that even if their spiritual awareness was at a low ebb, they were still on the journey with me. We were still family, in spite of whatever self righteous, judgmental attitude I might have been harboring.
One of the greater blessings has been the realization that my Church also includes the saints of all ages, even if their pictures don't show up in my parish directory. So it is in that sense too that the life of Christ in His people infuses and fortifies His Church in spite of whatever mortal monkey business we might be going through at the moment. Those who have finished the journey are always there for those of us who are still On the Road.
Not too long ago I was at a daily children's service at a small parish. The deacon led the children from the school in singing, "I Have Decided to Follow Jesus." I sang along, conscious of the cloud of witnesses - the Apostolic Fathers, Justin Martyr, etc. - holding my hands and helping me through, and I wept openly. At the same time I was, figuratively speaking, also holding hands with the children, who are also on this incredible journey.
Father, let not a grain be lost.
Last edited on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 04:10 pm by MichaelStEdmund
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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Michael Ewing
Member
| Joined: | Mon Dec 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | Iowa USA |
| Posts: | 59 |
| First Name: | Mike | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic, spiritually left the Church during late teens, dabbled ... |
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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 03:06 am |
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Michael,
Welcome and thanks for your story.
People on the outside of the RCC looking in aren't the only ones who experience "lukewarm" Catholics. As a cradle Catholic, I have been one and have been around countless folks like you describe in your first message.
In my youth and foolishness, I walked away from the Church, for, among other things, my perception that those around me were simply going through the motions as opposed to some of the more charismatic groups (I had and continue to have many evangelical friends) who seemed to be on fire and living their lives according to their relationships with Jesus. I was arrogant and ignorant.
As a revert, I continue to be disappointed to see how many people walk out of mass after communion. This may just be a local thing, I'm not sure, but it seems to be getting worse. I used to get really disgusted with people who would, while kneeling, set their butts against the edge of the pew, because they were too lazy to lean forward and kneel correctly. I am a jerk sometimes, Lord help me be humble!
Another recent issue with our parish is that people will begin to sit down before Father does after communion is finished. I grew up in a small town with what I consider to be a pretty strong Catholic community, very traditional in my opinion.
In our current parish, our previous priest, who we loved dearly, was a little more easy-going, fun-loving, etc. Everyone loved him, he was very engaging. Our new priest is a bit more traditional, which appeals to me greatly. I guess the word that comes to mind is reverent. I'm not sure if the other folks in our parish are impatient with him, or what, but alot of them are leaving while returning to their pews after communion.
While I am thankful that people obviously are acknowledging the Holy Eucharist as the center of our liturgy, I am concerned that people are lacking in reverence, and missing out on the small things. Maybe I'm off base here.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there are those who seem to be weak in their faith, and we cannot allow this to influence us. All we can do is pray!
I am thankful to God that you decided to take the leap of faith, despite your concerns about your Catholic acquaintances. God Bless you!
Mike Ewing
____________________
"Jesus said to him : I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
"Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up" - Gal 6:9
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MichaelStEdmund
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 95 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 09:36 am |
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Thanks, Michael.
It's so easy to become judgmental, especially if you're interested in liturgy - and as a convert, I wanted to do everything as correctly as possible. Most of the people I attend Mass with are more willing to just go with the flow, and the fine details aren't as important as "the big picture."
I made myself miserable over a myriad of things, some more important than others, I imagine. For a good while I was one fine bitter convert, convinced that no one cared. The turning point came when I realized that I might be liturgically on the ball, but in other areas of my life I was in dire need of mercy. I went to see Scott Hahn speak at a local parish, and he phrased it perfectly: "The greatest liturgical abuse is that I am allowed to participate." Seeing myself as someone who is in as much need of mercy as everyone else, regardless of how "correct" I think I am, has helped balance me out quite a bit.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1665 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2008 01:36 pm |
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Welcome to the forum, Michael, and we appreciate you sharing your story. You will clearly be a thoughtful addition to our friendly community.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 10:10 am |
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| God's peace. Michael, is your avatar that ancient cartoon of the clown that "lives" in the ink well? I haven't seen that cartoon for almost 50 years. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~ Last edited on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 10:30 am by Br_Carlo
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MichaelStEdmund
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 95 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 11:11 am |
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Br_Carlo,
Thanks for your post.
Yes, it is KoKo the Clown, praying as he meets the end of the world, from a 1928 cartoon.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 268 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 12:06 am |
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| Welcome home Michael. I believe that a lot of the problems you encounter with the faith of cradle catholics is due to poor catechesis. We were taught "this is what the church teaches", rather than "this is what the church teaches because the scriptures say it (citing the verses) and the early fathers taught this "(citing their writings). I am thankful that there are now a lot of good books around that explain the scriptural basis of the catholic faith, many written by protestant converts.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 623 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 12:24 am |
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In my studies and observations of the denominations, I find that, sometimes, the new people can end up being the ones who know the most about the church and its beliefs except for the Priests or Ministers. Sad yet true. And that happens in other denominations as well as in the RCC. I think that anyone of any denomination ought to at least at some point in life sit down and start reading, or rereading, about the beliefs of their church.
As for people leaving immediately after Communion, sadly, that too happens in other denominations. Sometimes it can be something justified like they have to get to work and cannot wait for the traffic to clear after the service - some of the Catholic Churches and Baptist Churches in our area, here in central Virginia, have large congregations and can really tie up traffic after a service - or the older folks may need to "heed the call of nature" or what have you. Sometimes, especially with the Baptists, it can be a race to the restaurants. And, sadly, with some people, it's just matter of "well, got that over with now on to the next item on my list for the day." Wonder how they would feel if God had that attitude about them? And I have also seen such things happen at various secular functions including college and high school graduations. I remember attending one graduation where after their name was called and they had their diploma, many of the graduates just went on out the door followed by their families who got up and left their seats. By the end of the ceremony, the number of people in the arena where the graduation was being held was getting rather small! I wondered if somebody was gonna yell, "tell the President and Deans to turn out the lights and lock up before they leave!" We do have a society which tends to set up the agenda for the day and move quickly on to the next thing as soon as possible. I think that people need to make an exception for church services and not be in such a hurry to get out the door.
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MichaelStEdmund
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 95 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 09:08 am |
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tedjenczewski wrote:
Welcome home Michael. I believe that a lot of the problems you encounter with the faith of cradle catholics is due to poor catechesis. We were taught "this is what the church teaches", rather than "this is what the church teaches because the scriptures say it (citing the verses) and the early fathers taught this "(citing their writings). I am thankful that there are now a lot of good books around that explain the scriptural basis of the catholic faith, many written by protestant converts.
As someone who had literally grown up at the feet of the Early Church Fathers, that's what made me so enthusiastic about the Catechism. The references to Scripture and the Fathers are abundant and on every page. It's different than any other book I've ever read in that way.
I realized just a few days ago that if it hadn't been for a teacher in high school who was raised as a Catholic and who had become a Baptist, I wouldn't have met the Church Fathers at all. His questions about my Pentacostal upbringing are what threw me into my search, and in the end I embraced the Church he had discarded.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5353 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Jan 4th, 2008 10:43 pm |
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tedjenczewski wrote: We were taught "this is what the church teaches", rather than "this is what the church teaches because the scriptures say it (citing the verses) and the early fathers taught this "(citing their writings). Ted, you are old enough to have been at least taught what the Church teaches. Unfortunately, many younger people were not even taught that much. And thankfully, it is being corrected for the next generation.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Jackie
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| Joined: | Sat May 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 120 |
| First Name: | Jackie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 04:22 pm |
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Michael, welcome to the forum. I am deeply moved by your story and wish you God's peace.
I believe we all struggle with the loneliness part sometimes and it's true we are all on different spiritual planes. Involving yourself in the Church's activities will not only put you face to face with nominal Catholics but also those of us who have a more vibrant love for the Faith. Ongoing adult cachesis is vital to the Church. The Spirit Himself seemed to move you towards Truth. I'm glad you responded. The gift to the Church is the Early Church Fathers as well as Tradition and Scripture. It would be the greatest Blessing indeed if we all would read them.
The cloud of witnesses you spoke of choked me up. I feel that way then I say the Holy Holy Holy. I feel like Heaven itself opens and as one accord we sing.
Neat stuff
Read on brother, read on! J
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sdreidy
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 12 |
| First Name: | shawn | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Assembly of God, Southern Baptist |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 02:10 pm |
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I came into the Kingdom through a large Pentecostal Denomination. I attended their Bible College and Seminary. I was not a history major, but the fact is we never studied of the early church fathers. We really did not go beyond the Reformation. It's kind of funny because Pentecostals usually strive to be more like the early church than their other Protestant peers.
There are some names like Augustine or Aquinas that may come up every now and then, but in those cases they use a single quote or thought to prove their cause.
Now that I've read quite of few books by Catholic Saints and leaders, especially the Carmelites, I will occasionally throw a quote or idea out to my friends. It's amazing that they've never heard of Teresa of Avila or John of the Cross.
My initial reaction was "why didn't I learn this stuff in Bible College?"
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MichaelStEdmund
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| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 95 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 05:15 pm |
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sdreidy wrote:
I came into the Kingdom through a large Pentecostal Denomination. I attended their Bible College and Seminary. I was not a history major, but the fact is we never studied of the early church fathers. We really did not go beyond the Reformation. It's kind of funny because Pentecostals usually strive to be more like the early church than their other Protestant peers.
There are some names like Augustine or Aquinas that may come up every now and then, but in those cases they use a single quote or thought to prove their cause.
Now that I've read quite of few books by Catholic Saints and leaders, especially the Carmelites, I will occasionally throw a quote or idea out to my friends. It's amazing that they've never heard of Teresa of Avila or John of the Cross.
My initial reaction was "why didn't I learn this stuff in Bible College?"
You know, the small book that introduced me to the Early Church Fathers began, if I recall correctly, as a college paper by an Assembly of God college student. I'm thinking back nearly 30 years, but I believe it was called "Tongues Like As of Fire," by Robert C. Dalton. For the first time, I read about people such as Irenaeus and Tertullian. Also included were references to the Waldenses, Irvingites, etc., but I wasn't as interested in them because they were groups and because they didn't go back as far in history as the Fathers did. Good thing too, since they were either heretics or Protestant fringe groups. Eventually, I figured out that Dalton had probably gotten a lot of material from John Wesley, who also went scouring through the Early Church Fathers in an attempt to explain what was happening in the ministry of the early Methodists.
So happy to know that you're here. So glad to finally embrace our heritage.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1665 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 07:03 pm |
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| I have a web page devoted to the Church fathers, if anyone is interested. Last edited on Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 07:04 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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