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martin6797
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| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 15 |
| First Name: | Doug | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised Methodist, Became Reformed (Calvinist), then an Anglican Priest |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 06:48 pm |
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I'm finally home and it feels good. I wandered from 1994 to 2001, but I made it along with my wife and kids.
I was raised a United Methodist in the Bible belt, so I was very familiar with the Bible, but not with doctrine. While I was in a Methodist College studying to be a Methodist Pastor I took a Church history course that really opened my eyes. While growing up, I really only knew of Methodist, Baptist and Assembly of God churches. I was unfamiliar with Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Anglicans (Episcopals), however, we had one Catholic family in town. I knew them well, but did not know much about them. I was taught at Baptist revivals (not Methodist revivals, the Methodists really had no beef with the RCC) that the ROMAN Catholic Church was the "Den of Satan". But that really didn't affect me because my parents raised me to be "Chrisitan" first.
While in college I was introduced to the doctrine of predestination. I was enthrawled by it. It was so logical and seemingly Biblical. After a summer of study, I began to attend a Presbyterian church, this was during my senior year of college. By the time I graduated, I had started attending an Episcoal parish because of the liturgy and how beautiful it was, but I remained Reformed.
The week after I graduated, I heard the conversion of Scott Hahn and it blew my mind. For the next summer, I dealt with some of the issues, but talked myself out of seriously studying the Papacy, which was the cause of me remaining Protestant. However, I picked up some nasty habits and ideas: 1) I started praying the Rosary; 2) Justification by Faith alone no longer made sense to me; 3) Sola Scriptura had definitely fallen; and 4) I believed in the Catholic function of Baptism and the Lord's Supper, even though I would struggle with my ideas of the Sacraments throughout seminary.
Over the next several years I went to 3 different seminaries (I had some financial troubles at 2 of them) before going to a Reformed Episcopal seminary in Shreveport, LA. While there, I became more and more convinced of Catholic ideas and practices; and was no solidly convinced of baptismal regeneration, the True and Real Presence, and of Confession (Penance). Also, my wife and I started practicing NFP.
I was called to a Anglo-Catholic parish where I found myself struggling to deal with the moral issues of my parish. I sought help for several sources, but consistently, I agreed with the Catholic teaching on morality. So, I reopened the case and this time I took on the Papacy. After reading several books and papers, I tried to retreat and follow the same path I had 7 years earlier, but to no avail.
Now came the tough part... telling my wife. I told her that I must leave the priesthood and that I wanted to become Catholic. I also told her that I would not go without her, but that I did not want to pressure her. If she never converted, then I would stay in Anglicanism. She began to study. I did not help her unless she asked me too, so she did alot of the work herself. Within 3 months time, she was convinced (she is a very deeply spiritual woman).
I flew up to Rockford, IL and asked Bishop Doran to take me in and allow me to go through the Pastoral Provision process to be a priest and he did just that. 11 months into the process, however, I left the process to become a layman and get to know the faith. 6 years later, we are living in Alabama with 2 children (about to adopt a child as well) very happily Catholic.
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"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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TotusTuus
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| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 126 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 08:18 pm |
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Doug,
I'm very happy to hear of your journey into the Church. I'm sure you brought a great many gifts and insights with you from your years of responding to the Lord. What part of Alabama do you reside?
There seem to be more than a few proud Alabamians in the forums! I think the land is specially blessed here by the presence of proud religious like the Poor Clare Nun of Perpetual Adoration ...
Mark
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TTM!
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5453 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 11:00 pm |
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We’re glad to have you here with us. We do have one member who is a former Anglican priest and has been admitted to Catholic orders under the Pastoral Provision, but he doesn't get to visit as often since his ordination. He's known here as Fr. Gnyssa.
Are you involved in ministry in the Church?
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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tedjenczewski
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| Joined: | Thu May 10th, 2007 |
| Location: | Richmond, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 306 |
| First Name: | Ted | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Presbyterian, revert Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 11:10 pm |
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| Welcome Home Doug. I pray you will find a position in the church. We are in need of priests and deacons at the parish level here on the east coast in view of the shortage men entering these vocations.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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Talithacumi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 280 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Tue Dec 11th, 2007 11:34 pm |
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Doug,
Hi. Don't have a lot of time now. Have been hanging around on the forum tonight for too long and I have to get up early tomorrow. But I just happened to read your post, so I wanted to take a moment just to say welcome to the forum. As I've said so many times in the past (but how could you know that?  - and so I'll repeat myself...), reading conversion stories like yours is such a blessing to me, and to others, I'm sure. The stories I read on here - and now yours among them - are so inspirational. Thank you for sharing your story with us! I look forward to reading more from you. Welcome aboard!
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 853 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 02:31 am |
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martin6797 wrote:
I was called to a Anglo-Catholic parish where I found myself struggling to deal with the moral issues of my parish. I sought help for several sources, but consistently, I agreed with the Catholic teaching on morality.
Both of my daughters are enamored with Anglo-Catholicism. I've visited their churches and they are both very high church in their liturgy. But I'm curious what are the moral issues of AC'ism you struggled with. I don't know very much about the denomination.
I guess it could be worse. At least they're getting close to the RCC.
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Br_Carlo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 150 |
| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 07:59 am |
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God's peace. Your path sounds very much like mine, although I have never had a call to ordained ministry. In the 1980's I had quite a painful experience with the Tyler theonomists, many (and most notably Ray Sutton) who later became big shots in the REC and were closely attached to the Shreveport seminary. I would be interested in your observations about that place.
When the Episcopal Church began to collapse in the late 1990's, my wife and I sought refuge for a time in the Anglo-catholic Episcopal Diocese of Ft. Worth under the Episcopal bishop Jack Iker. That was our last stop before becoming Catholic. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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martin6797
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 15 |
| First Name: | Doug | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised Methodist, Became Reformed (Calvinist), then an Anglican Priest |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 11:41 am |
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TotusTuus wrote: Doug,
I'm very happy to hear of your journey into the Church. I'm sure you brought a great many gifts and insights with you from your years of responding to the Lord. What part of Alabama do you reside?
There seem to be more than a few proud Alabamians in the forums! I think the land is specially blessed here by the presence of proud religious like the Poor Clare Nun of Perpetual Adoration ...
Mark
I would like to get to know some of them. We live in the country near a small town. There are very few Catholics within a 15 mile radius. Our parish has also been very tough to "break" into. We have made some friends, but not close friendships with people that we could do things with. We both need that fellowship of committed Catholics.
____________________
"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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martin6797
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 15 |
| First Name: | Doug | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised Methodist, Became Reformed (Calvinist), then an Anglican Priest |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 11:45 am |
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CajunRick wrote: We’re glad to have you here with us. We do have one member who is a former Anglican priest and has been admitted to Catholic orders under the Pastoral Provision, but he doesn't get to visit as often since his ordination. He's known here as Fr. Gnyssa.
Are you involved in ministry in the Church?
I am. We have young children, so my wife and I are elementary youth leaders, which means we do a program once a month for 1st thru 5th graders.
I will also be teaching the youth group some on our Generations of Faith night (our parish educational program that is 4 hours one Wednesday a month.)
And I started the only men's study that we have. Until then the only thing for men was the KofC.
I blog, as well: http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
I continue to debate whether to go back to the process. It is an ongoing struggle with me because ministry was so natural to me and I miss it, badly.
____________________
"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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martin6797
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 15 |
| First Name: | Doug | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised Methodist, Became Reformed (Calvinist), then an Anglican Priest |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 11:47 am |
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tedjenczewski wrote: Welcome Home Doug. I pray you will find a position in the church. We are in need of priests and deacons at the parish level here on the east coast in view of the shortage men entering these vocations.
I really struggle with it, because I want to enter the priesthood so much, but at this point, I just can't. I don't even know if I can explain it well, but I just can't right now.
As far as the Diaconate goes, I really need to decide whether I am going to attempt the process again before really deciding to enter the permanent diaconate.
____________________
"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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martin6797
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 15 |
| First Name: | Doug | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised Methodist, Became Reformed (Calvinist), then an Anglican Priest |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 11:49 am |
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Talithacumi wrote: Doug,
Hi. Don't have a lot of time now. Have been hanging around on the forum tonight for too long and I have to get up early tomorrow. But I just happened to read your post, so I wanted to take a moment just to say welcome to the forum. As I've said so many times in the past (but how could you know that? - and so I'll repeat myself...), reading conversion stories like yours is such a blessing to me, and to others, I'm sure. The stories I read on here - and now yours among them - are so inspirational. Thank you for sharing your story with us! I look forward to reading more from you. Welcome aboard!
JMJ
- Cheri
Thank you, I appreciate it. I did leave alot. I will probably at some point post just how difficult it was to leave my calling and career as a priest. It was not an easy decision. Matter of fact, it has been very humbling as it has been hard for me to find work at times. But God is good.
____________________
"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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martin6797
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 15 |
| First Name: | Doug | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised Methodist, Became Reformed (Calvinist), then an Anglican Priest |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 11:58 am |
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JillD wrote: martin6797 wrote:
I was called to a Anglo-Catholic parish where I found myself struggling to deal with the moral issues of my parish. I sought help for several sources, but consistently, I agreed with the Catholic teaching on morality.
Both of my daughters are enamored with Anglo-Catholicism. I've visited their churches and they are both very high church in their liturgy. But I'm curious what are the moral issues of AC'ism you struggled with. I don't know very much about the denomination.
I guess it could be worse. At least they're getting close to the RCC.
Jill
Jill,
The issues that I dealt with were very simple ones such as divorce, alcoholism, abortion, homosexuality. I don't mean to say simple in that they were unimportant, but simple in that the moral decision for each should be clear.
I had a young woman come to me and tell me that she believed in the right of a woman to choose to abort. I told her that Scripture (since that is all we really had, tradition is important but does not hold the same position as Scripture) demands she not support abortion. She told me that her church says it's ok. How was I to argue? She was right, the Anglican Church does encourage and support the right to abort. I realized quickly that I had nothing backing me and that I looked like a fanatical, opinionated priest rather than a faithful one to Tradition and Scripture. I knew then that I had to leave.
Anglicanism really puts our liturgies to shame. I did not convert because of the beauty of the Mass, but inspite of it. Or, at least from what I have seen. I have been to few parishes who give the Mass its due reverence, nor do I see many that use good music, good readers and the like. That being said, I love the Mass and I see beauty of it despite the often poor presentation. But I have lost a good many friends to Orthodoxy because of their presentation of the Divine Liturgy. Worship is so important to Anglicans and it is hard to leave for principle when there is seemingly an option (Orthodoxy) who provides both the true Church and proper worship.
Good luck with your daughters, I will be praying for them. But, you are right, it could be worse.
____________________
"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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martin6797
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 15 |
| First Name: | Doug | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised Methodist, Became Reformed (Calvinist), then an Anglican Priest |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 12:03 pm |
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Br_Carlo wrote: God's peace. Your path sounds very much like mine, although I have never had a call to ordained ministry. In the 1980's I had quite a painful experience with the Tyler theonomists, many (and most notably Ray Sutton) who later became big shots in the REC and were closely attached to the Shreveport seminary. I would be interested in your observations about that place.
When the Episcopal Church began to collapse in the late 1990's, my wife and I sought refuge for a time in the Anglo-catholic Episcopal Diocese of Ft. Worth under the Episcopal bishop Jack Iker. That was our last stop before becoming Catholic. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
I nearly went to Ft. Worth because of the SSC, but I converted.
My thoughts on Cranmer House are varied. Critical and yet appreciative. I went to Shreveport because of Bishop Ray R. Sutton. I was not a theonomist, but I appreciated some of his writings. I meant him and I was hooked, as most are. He is a very influential person who has great vision, however, that vision is somewhat delusion.
Cranmer was a mess, that is why they had to move it. I graduated when it was at its strongest. I believe that I got the best Anglican education possible. Some of the profs never left theonomy, they replaced the government with the "church". Most remained Calvinists, which caused me great trouble and is one of the main reasons I left them. I could go on and on, so let me know what you want to hear.
____________________
"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1311 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 12:43 pm |
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Doug, I am delighted that you have joined the Forum and really look forward to your contributions here.
I can sense the heartache you have suffered as a part of your journey. Many of us also left former places of service with great difficulty.
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"He who will persevere unto the end is not he who will never fall, but he who after every fall will humble himself and rise again, relying on the infinite strength of God." Divine Intimacy, p. 885 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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martin6797
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 15 |
| First Name: | Doug | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised Methodist, Became Reformed (Calvinist), then an Anglican Priest |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 12:58 pm |
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Intercessor wrote: Doug, I am delighted that you have joined the Forum and really look forward to your contributions here.
I can sense the heartache you have suffered as a part of your journey. Many of us also left former places of service with great difficulty.
I think I will enjoy this forum and it is something that I need.
I realize that many have left similar situations to me, and some have it worse. For one thing, my family has been extremely supportive of our decision, so that has made it easier. I find it therapeutic to talk about the transition and I will share more about it in another post.
____________________
"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 853 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 01:58 pm |
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martin6797 wrote:
Jill,
The issues that I dealt with were very simple ones such as divorce, alcoholism, abortion, homosexuality. I don't mean to say simple in that they were unimportant, but simple in that the moral decision for each should be clear.
Anglicanism really puts our liturgies to shame. I did not convert because of the beauty of the Mass, but inspite of it. Or, at least from what I have seen. I have been to few parishes who give the Mass its due reverence, nor do I see many that use good music, good readers and the like. That being said, I love the Mass and I see beauty of it despite the often poor presentation. But I have lost a good many friends to Orthodoxy because of their presentation of the Divine Liturgy. Worship is so important to Anglicans and it is hard to leave for principle when there is seemingly an option (Orthodoxy) who provides both the true Church and proper worship.
Good luck with your daughters, I will be praying for them. But, you are right, it could be worse.
Hi Doug,
Thank you for all that info, but would you straighten something out for me? All these 'Anglican' denominations are confusing to me. I understand that the Episcopal church is the US branch of the Anglican church, right? Is the Anglo-Catholic church its own denomination or is it a branch of something else? If the former, does it still hold those liberal stances on moral issues while calling itself 'Catholic'? If the latter, what is it a branch of? The Episcopal church??
I'm surprised to hear that the Anglo-Catholic church takes such opposite moral positions on abortion, homosexuality, etc. I appreciate your taking the time to help me unravel this. I'd like to be able to speak about it to my daughters with the correct information. Thank you for your prayers!
And, indeed, the liturgy is watered down. I've been complaining about the music and lack of singing in my Catholic parish from the get-go (though only to myself, really). But the joy I feel about the Eucharist makes all the rest seem trivial. And the Orthodox church seems as mixed up as any of them about who's in charge. I rest in the fact of the Magisterium and am thankful that there are people willing to be responsible to lead and to follow, as required.
Jill
Last edited on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 01:59 pm by JillD
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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martin6797
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 11th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Doug | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised Methodist, Became Reformed (Calvinist), then an Anglican Priest |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 02:23 pm |
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JillD wrote: Hi Doug,
Thank you for all that info, but would you straighten something out for me? All these 'Anglican' denominations are confusing to me. I understand that the Episcopal church is the US branch of the Anglican church, right? Is the Anglo-Catholic church its own denomination or is it a branch of something else? If the former, does it still hold those liberal stances on moral issues while calling itself 'Catholic'? If the latter, what is it a branch of? The Episcopal church??
I'm surprised to hear that the Anglo-Catholic church takes such opposite moral positions on abortion, homosexuality, etc. I appreciate your taking the time to help me unravel this. I'd like to be able to speak about it to my daughters with the correct information. Thank you for your prayers!
And, indeed, the liturgy is watered down. I've been complaining about the music and lack of singing in my Catholic parish from the get-go (though only to myself, really). But the joy I feel about the Eucharist makes all the rest seem trivial. And the Orthodox church seems as mixed up as any of them about who's in charge. I rest in the fact of the Magisterium and am thankful that there are people willing to be responsible to lead and to follow, as required.
Jill
Jill - "All these 'Anglican' denominations are confusing to me. I understand that the Episcopal church is the US branch of the Anglican church, right?"
Doug - It is confusing for good reason, they are confused. Last I heard there are over 50 different Anglican "branches". The group your daughters are in may not be apart of the Episcopal Church (TEC). If not, that is good, the group that they are apart of are probably more traditional and more than likely hold to the same moral theology we do (with the exception of birth control, I'm sure). So they may be in a better situation than I may have indicated.
The official stance of Canterbury is, if you are in the US and are not in the TEC,then you are not trully an Anglican, but only one in name. This does not mean the same thing in Anglicanism as it does in Catholicism. They are protestants, so it is ok to find legitimacy outside of Canterbury. Apostolic succession not only means passing on the office by the laying on of hands, but also the passing on of the faith... without both a Protestant can make the argument that they must leave Canterbury to retain Apostolic succession.
All that is to say, check the name, if it is TEC, then look out. If not, I'd investigate more, but I would feel better about them being there.
I hope and pray that the Mass improves, as well. I believe it will, in time, because most priests and parishoners my age want a better liturgy and Mass. Until then we suffer quietly, all the time enjoying the presence of Our Lord in the Mass and getting the best we can from it.
____________________
"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 02:32 pm |
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martin6797 wrote: Anglicanism really puts our liturgies to shame. I did not convert because of the beauty of the Mass, but inspite of it. Or, at least from what I have seen. I have been to few parishes who give the Mass its due reverence, nor do I see many that use good music, good readers and the like. That being said, I love the Mass and I see beauty of it despite the often poor presentation. But I have lost a good many friends to Orthodoxy because of their presentation of the Divine Liturgy.
I can't completely disagree with you, Doug, but have you ever taken a look at the Divine Liturgy in the Eastern Catholic Churches? And in those areas where it is available, we in the Latin Rite have the Anglican Use and the Extraordinary form of the Latin Rite.
There is no doubt that liturgy has suffered in the post-Vatican II era, but I believe our Holy Father has signaled his intention to do whatever it takes to strengthen the liturgy. I think we reached the "bottom of the valley" in the 80's and liturgy has been on an upswing ever since, slowly but surely. And I think we'll see some real changes in the next few years.
But I also have to say that I have been to very few masses in my life that prevented me from feeling reverence to the Eucharist. Reverence to me is not an external thing, but an internal one. If I feel reverence in my own heart and soul, the conduct of the liturgy is almost irrelevant. I don't always love the liturgy, but I'll always love what I know the liturgy can be, and that is a mechanism by which heaven kisses earth and our Savior comes to me in the Eucharist.
And if I can get that and good singing, I'm way ahead!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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martin6797
Member
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 03:06 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: I can't completely disagree with you, Doug, but have you ever taken a look at the Divine Liturgy in the Eastern Catholic Churches? And in those areas where it is available, we in the Latin Rite have the Anglican Use and the Extraordinary form of the Latin Rite.
There is no doubt that liturgy has suffered in the post-Vatican II era, but I believe our Holy Father has signaled his intention to do whatever it takes to strengthen the liturgy. I think we reached the "bottom of the valley" in the 80's and liturgy has been on an upswing ever since, slowly but surely. And I think we'll see some real changes in the next few years.
But I also have to say that I have been to very few masses in my life that prevented me from feeling reverence to the Eucharist. Reverence to me is not an external thing, but an internal one. If I feel reverence in my own heart and soul, the conduct of the liturgy is almost irrelevant. I don't always love the liturgy, but I'll always love what I know the liturgy can be, and that is a mechanism by which heaven kisses earth and our Savior comes to me in the Eucharist.
And if I can get that and good singing, I'm way ahead!
I love the Divine Liturgy in the ECC, and if I were close enough to a parish to attend, I probably would, but I feel a real call to be part of the solution and not the problem in the Latin Rite. I’ll say the same for the Anglican Use, I would love it, but I am not close to an Anglican Use parish. As far as the Extraordinary form is concerned, I have been to a service and loved it, however, I do not believe that I could attend every week. Part of my conversion was due to Vatican II and specifically the Mass being put in the vernacular. I appreciate the efforts of Benedict to rectify the situation and I look forward to working with my parish to affect change.
I agree with you about being able to maintain a reverent focus even when the service itself is not presented as such. There have been a few services with “praise bands” that I almost walked out of because it almost mocked the Mass, at least in my opinion. Nonetheless, I feel like you do and I believe you put it perfectly in this statement:
“I don't always love the liturgy, but I'll always love what I know the liturgy can be, and that is a mechanism by which heaven kisses earth and our Savior comes to me in the Eucharist.”
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"Love without Truth is Blind. Truth without Love is Empty." Pope Benedict XVI http://englishcatholicism.blogspot.com
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tom1274
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| Joined: | Wed Dec 12th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 1 |
| First Name: | Thomas | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 05:37 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: But I also have to say that I have been to very few masses in my life that prevented me from feeling reverence to the Eucharist. Reverence to me is not an external thing, but an internal one. If I feel reverence in my own heart and soul, the conduct of the liturgy is almost irrelevant. I don't always love the liturgy, but I'll always love what I know the liturgy can be, and that is a mechanism by which heaven kisses earth and our Savior comes to me in the Eucharist.
I, like Doug, have an Anglican background. And, like him, I have struggled with the state of the liturgy in the Roman rite. While I appreciate what you have to say regarding personal responsibility towards participation in the liturgy, and the surpassing gift of the Eucharist, I cannot disagree more with the statement, "Reverence ... is not an external thing." What then distinguishes our worship from that of the Protestants?
The liturgy, like the body of Christ, and by extension from the sacraments, gives visible expression to the Glory and the Mysteries of God. Any form of reductionism which sets the interior against the exterior or the invisible against the visible or even the individual sacraments individually appropriated against ritual and ceremonial in general is not consistent with the catholic liturgical tradition both east and west - at least not since the triumph of the seventh ecumenical council over purely spiritual religion. To say that the conduct of the liturgy is "almost irrelevant" as long as one has the proper interior disposition seems to illustrate the very crisis in liturgical consciousness that we are experiencing in the West.
You recommended to Doug the Eastern Catholic rite and the Anglican use. Certainly that is not because you believe that those Christians who understand the importance of liturgy and value its proper celebration belong elsewhere than the Roman Catholic Church? I only ask because after listing some alternatives to the Roman rite, you then described your own experience of the Roman rite as practically non-liturgical. Do you think this experience is typical of most Roman Catholics?
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 853 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Wed Dec 12th, 2007 07:15 pm |
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OK, how about this for, what seems to me, a parishioner's irreverent choice of behavior during Mass. If this is not irreverent, please explain.
In LA, it's become fashionable to carry your little poodle dogs and other minis with you wherever you go: the mall, the grocery store, everywhere. You can even buy special little purses for your puppy to be held in. My friend attended a Mass down there this morning and said that a woman brought her dog to church and took the pooch up to the Eucharist with her and even received both kinds while holding the mutt.
To me, this sounds nuts. Please tell me this is not acceptable!
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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Irenic
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Madison, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 26 |
| First Name: | Jason | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Former baptist lay preacher; Catholic by God's grace since 2006. |
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Posted: Thu Dec 13th, 2007 12:55 am |
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martin6797 wrote
I would like to get to know some of them. We live in the country near a small town. There are very few Catholics within a 15 mile radius. Our parish has also been very tough to "break" into. We have made some friends, but not close friendships with people that we could do things with. We both need that fellowship of committed Catholics.
Martin:
I'm coming in late, but, as one of those Alabama Catholics I wanted to say hi and welcome.
So, greetings from Madison, AL, right outside Huntsville.
I've added your blog to my RSS reader and I'm looking forward to reading the other blog about your "conversion." I was also very touched by the memorial to your son Noah.
God bless you and your family. I hope y'all have a blessed Advent.
Pax,
Jason
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Through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever.
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